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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 81334 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #300 on: August 26, 2025, 12:33:05 PM »
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  • If a priest is doing a baptism, and before the ceremony he says that baptism does not wash away Original Sin because there's no such thing, and baptism is "just an initiation into the community", then even if the matter and form are correct, the "baptism" is invalid.

    If a bishop, before ordaining, says that ordination is the selection of a person for leading the community meal, a man equal to the other community members who celebrate with him etc., are we allowed to pretend the intention is above doubt?

    If they returned to the old rite, but kept teaching their false concepts of the priesthood, the doubtful intention would remain!  What separates them from the Church is firstly their departure from the Faith!  The problem of rites follows closely after.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #301 on: August 26, 2025, 04:47:47 PM »
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  • If a priest is doing a baptism, and before the ceremony he says that baptism does not wash away Original Sin because there's no such thing, and baptism is "just an initiation into the community", then even if the matter and form are correct, the "baptism" is invalid.

    No.

    Requisite intention for validity is satisfied by ... "Here's the Rite that the Catholic Church uses.  I'm going to go do the Rite."  That's all the intention that's required.  They do not have to intend what the Church intends by the Rite, just intend to do it.  If they go out there, put on their vestments, and read out of the Rite, and the Rite itself is valid ... then the Baptism is valid.

    Now, if said priest began deliberately altering the Rite ... that's a problem, since now he does not intend to do what the Church does, but is intending to do what HE wants to do, and is making it conform to his own theology, and isn't doing what the Church DOES even, by not following the Rite.

    Since that's a pervasive mentality among Novus Ordites, that by itself could be a serious problem.

    Pope Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae explicitly taught that the intention of the Rite was vitiated by the agenda to systematically remove everything that was not "suitable to the errors of the Reformers", i.e. that could not be accommodated to them, thereby rendering it invalid, regardless of the intention of the minister.


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #302 on: August 27, 2025, 07:24:29 PM »
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  • This translation is less than precise. The Archbishop said, "Les sacrements sont TOUS douteux" The sacraments are ALL doubtful.  Not some... ALL. He says ALL in the Mr. Wilson letter also.

    This discussion about the new form is extremely interesting, however the fact is that +Lefebvre did not consider the new form a problem, and when the Neo-SSPX doesn't either, you can't say they're contradicting their founder.  The flagrant problem is that we have a video recording and a handwritten letter of the Archbishop saying that ALL conciliar ordinations are doubtful now (now = 1988). And then the Neo-SSPX pretends it's still 1978 and that there are still bishops around who clearly disassociate themselves from the prevailing false concepts of the priesthood.
    Video recording and a hand-written letter. May I see them? Where did this letter come from? Who is Mr. Wilson?

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #303 on: August 27, 2025, 07:48:18 PM »
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  • The point is that PPVI changed the matter and form of the sacrament in order to change the sacrament: "We thought fit to modify the sacramental formula in such a way that, in view of the words of Saint James, the effects of the sacrament might be better expressed."

    In the new sacrament the priest asks no pardon of God for sins, you should ask: Why? It is because the focus is strictly on the body.

    You should note that this change does not at all take into account the words of St. James who says: "and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him."

    If it is true that he changed the established matter and form to better express the words of St. James, then you tell me - why did they purposely remove asking pardon from sins?

    You may not know that even after a long life of sin, Catholics who receive the sacrament of Extreme Unction with the appropriate dispositions go straight to heaven when they die - they enter eternity without having to go to purgatory! This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately.

    This cannot be said for those who receive the NO sacrament of Anointing of the sick, that is not even it's purpose. The NO sacrament does not do this because their foundation is in their preaching, that everyone already goes to heaven.....except of course those evil traditional Catholics.
    Pope Paul VI did not change the matter and form. He slightly modified the wording however the sense is still the same. The substance - what the sacrament is - was not changed.

    The Form of the new version reads as follows: "by this holy unction and His pious mercy, may god help you by the grace of the holy spirit, in order that, delivered from your sins, God may save you and restore you to his goodness."

    The original wording was far better however the change of phrasing does not invalidate it. The essential meaning is still there and it is very similar to the scriptural meaning of James 5:14–15.

    Canon 841: "since the sacraments are the same for the whole church and belong to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity..."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #304 on: August 30, 2025, 06:14:58 AM »
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  • Pope Paul VI did not change the matter and form. He slightly modified the wording however the sense is still the same. The substance - what the sacrament is - was not changed.

    The Form of the new version reads as follows: "by this holy unction and His pious mercy, may god help you by the grace of the holy spirit, in order that, delivered from your sins, God may save you and restore you to his goodness."

    The original wording was far better however the change of phrasing does not invalidate it. The essential meaning is still there and it is very similar to the scriptural meaning of James 5:14–15.

    Canon 841: "since the sacraments are the same for the whole church and belong to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity..."
    Ahh Boru, Boru, Boru, what are we going to do with you?
     
    Just because PPVI did not come right out and say he was doing away with one sacrament and replacing it with another of his own invention, you do not believe that is what he actually did, he actually did that - and he gave it a new name as well, he called it The Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

    Now if you do not see this as two different sacraments, then I do not know what else to say. 

    The NO Breviary says:
    The priest anoints the sick person with blessed oil.
    "Free him/her from sin and all temptation" and in another place: "May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up." 

    In the Catholic Breviary it says:
    Then, dipping his thumb in the holy oil, he anoints the sick person in the form of a cross in the parts here inscribed, adapting the words to their proper place; in this manner:
    To the Eyes: Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have committed by sight.
    To the Ears:Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned by hearing.
    To the Nose:Through this holy Anointing and His most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned through the perfume.
    To the Mouth: Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned in taste and speech.
    To the Hands:Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned by touch.
    At the Feet:Through this holy anointing and his most merciful mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned in your walk.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #305 on: August 30, 2025, 10:08:09 AM »
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  • Ahh Boru, Boru, Boru, what are we going to do with you?
     
    Just because PPVI did not come right out and say he was doing away with one sacrament and replacing it with another of his own invention, you do not believe that is what he actually did, he actually did that - and he gave it a new name as well, he called it The Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

    Now if you do not see this as two different sacraments, then I do not know what else to say.

    The NO Breviary says:
    The priest anoints the sick person with blessed oil.
    "Free him/her from sin and all temptation" and in another place: "May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up."

    In the Catholic Breviary it says:
    Then, dipping his thumb in the holy oil, he anoints the sick person in the form of a cross in the parts here inscribed, adapting the words to their proper place; in this manner:
    To the Eyes: Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have committed by sight.
    To the Ears:Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned by hearing.
    To the Nose:Through this holy Anointing and His most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned through the perfume.
    To the Mouth: Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned in taste and speech.
    To the Hands:Through this holy anointing and his most pious mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned by touch.
    At the Feet:Through this holy anointing and his most merciful mercy, may the Lord forgive you whatever you have sinned in your walk.
    A number of the sacraments had "new names" during the history of the Church. And 'Anointing of the Sick" is one of them. Historically, it is more traditional than 'Extreme Unction'.

    I do not have the full wording of the NO Breviary in front of me to compare, however you have quoted enough to prove that, although highly abbreviated, it means the same. The core element is there: The priest anoints the sick person with blessed oil, saying in prayer "Free him/her from sin and all temptation" and "May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up." We know from the NO formula that both the head and hands are anointed with Holy Oil, and the wording covers what St. James wrote scriptually: 
    Is any among you sick?
    Let him call for the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him,
    anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
    and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up;
    and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven". 
    --James 5:14-15

    I agree with you that the traditional formula is far, far superior. However, as a simple cross on the forehead with Holy Oil and a quick prayer is deemed valid and effectual by the Church in an emergency, then we can have no doubt that a shortened version of the traditional formula is also valid. As long as the three essential elements are present: Matter, Form, and the intention to do what the Church does.

    Pope Paul VI was a victim of Modernism - believing that we have to adapt - wed - Christianity to modern times. That doesn't mean that he intended to invalidate the sacrament. Only streamline it to make it seem simpler and "updated". The Church is Christ. That's a teaching of the Church. And all that pertains to the divine side is eternal and infectable. There are enemies inside the Church making and encouraging these changes. And there are enemies outside the Church claiming these changes mean the Church has failed. We are being played by both sides of the street.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #306 on: August 30, 2025, 10:30:34 AM »
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  • A number of the sacraments had "new names" during the history of the Church. And 'Anointing of the Sick" is one of them. Historically, it is more traditional than 'Extreme Unction'.

    I do not have the full wording of the NO Breviary in front of me to compare, however you have quoted enough to prove that, although highly abbreviated, it means the same.
    Oh it's highly abbreviated alright, to the point that it means something different than what the Sacrament it replaced says. But, if only abbreviated it still means the same thing, which it doesn't, but if it means the same thing, then why change it at all? It HAS to mean something different.

    Speaking of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, (I changed those references for the Sacrament we are discussing), Fr. Wathen puts it this way... 
    "The new forms (Latin and English) must be seen to say something different from the old - because it does. Furthermore, in view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious. We should rather say, we have every reason to look for an effort at neuterizing this sacramental rite, because those in charge of the new rites have shown themselves untrustworthy, or, more accurately, determinedly subversive.

    The new form could not be an improvement on the old. How can one method or set of words anoint someone better than another? The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy. (As if it needs to be said: They could not have added something to the form by taking words away. And what could they have wanted to add to the power of the sacrament? Why did they touch the form at all?)"
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #307 on: September 01, 2025, 05:57:45 AM »
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  • Oh it's highly abbreviated alright, to the point that it means something different than what the Sacrament it replaced says. But, if only abbreviated it still means the same thing, which it doesn't, but if it means the same thing, then why change it at all? It HAS to mean something different.

    Speaking of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, (I changed those references for the Sacrament we are discussing), Fr. Wathen puts it this way...
    "The new forms (Latin and English) must be seen to say something different from the old - because it does. Furthermore, in view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious. We should rather say, we have every reason to look for an effort at neuterizing this sacramental rite, because those in charge of the new rites have shown themselves untrustworthy, or, more accurately, determinedly subversive.

    The new form could not be an improvement on the old. How can one method or set of words anoint someone better than another? The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy. (As if it needs to be said: They could not have added something to the form by taking words away. And what could they have wanted to add to the power of the sacrament? Why did they touch the form at all?)"
    I do not know who Fr. Wathen is but I would answer him the same way I answered you: Canon 841: "since the sacraments are the same for the whole church and belong to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity...".

    I would also answer  - like I reminded Pax - Moderism is so insidious that a person - even Popes - do not realise that they are victims; they do not realise that they are leaning dangerously into error. The new form was not meant to be an improvement of the old. It was meant to be simply a simplified version in order to be better understood by "modern man" - so Pope VI thought. It was an illusion that he fell for.  However, as I continue to stress (I feel like a budgie now!), Christ is the Church (article of faith) and as Christ is both human and divine, so is the Church (also article of faith). The divine part of the Church - which includes the Mass and the Sacraments - cannot falter or fail. Individual priests can invalidate the sacraments, but the Church itself cannot. This is guaranteed by the Holy Ghost.

    I agree with Fr. Wathen when he says "The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of ....creating a doubt as to its efficacy." I do not believe Pope Paul VI had this intention - and Archbishop Lefebrve, who was closer to the ground than we are- also did not believe he had this intention - but I believe that there were infiltrators around him who groomed him and encouraged him in this direction. The poster who calls himself Cassini  - and who has made it his life's work - tells us that Modernism didn't start in Pius X's time or Vatican II - it goes way, way back to the time of the Renaissance. Even holy churchmen were and have been effected. Modernism is a weapon used by Freemasonic magicians who use smoke and mirrors - especially in the area of science - to delude Catholics into using worldly knowledge to "enhance" and "guide" our understanding of Christianity.




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #308 on: September 01, 2025, 07:24:53 AM »
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  • I do not know who Fr. Wathen is but I would answer him the same way I answered you: Canon 841: "since the sacraments are the same for the whole church and belong to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity...".
    Fr. Wathen was one of the many priests who, from the beginning, remained faithful and never went along with the new mass and religion of V2. I learned of him just after his death in 2006 when a friend told me about him. His book The Great Sacrilege was published about 1971, when the new mass and religion was not quite everywhere just yet, it is all about the new "mass." One of his other books, "Who Shall Ascend?" is attached as a pdf. Both are well worth reading.

    Also, here we avoid quoting Canon Law from the New (1983) Code. I attached a pdf of the 1917 Canon Law for you to use.....you will find that it does not have anything close to your above Canon Law quote - because all those things within the "The Divine Deposit" are unchangeable. Why? Because God ("Divine") is the one who deposited all those things in there. All those things in the "Divine Deposit (of faith)" are to be believed, preserved, defended and promulgated, not changed. Nobody can change anything within it.

    The NO Canon Law in your quote is right when it says: "it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity...". The sacrament's validity was previously, already approved and defined by the Supreme Authority of the Church, so what PPVI did was he made and defined his own NO sacrament, then he approved it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #309 on: September 01, 2025, 08:43:17 AM »
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  • Quote
    I would also answer  - like I reminded Pax - Moderism is so insidious that a person - even Popes - do not realise that they are victims; they do not realise that they are leaning dangerously into error.
    :laugh1:  You act like modernism is a virus that people can catch unknowingly.  No, modernism is a heresy.  Those who fall into it, do so if their own free will.  To say that a pope, WHO HAS THE PROTECTION OF THE HOLY GHOST, could fall into heresy and BE A VICTIM of heresy without realizing it is itself a heresy.  1) you’re denying the efficacy of grace.  2) denial of conscience.  3) denial of infallibility.  


    But this is how women think.  Everyone is a victim.  Everyone is a good person who gets tricked.  It’s never anyone’s fault.  ….naive and immature.  …and heretical.  

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #310 on: September 01, 2025, 09:33:38 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  You act like modernism is a virus that people can catch unknowingly.  No, modernism is a heresy.  Those who fall into it, do so if their own free will.  To say that a pope, WHO HAS THE PROTECTION OF THE HOLY GHOST, could fall into heresy and BE A VICTIM of heresy without realizing it is itself a heresy.  1) you’re denying the efficacy of grace.  2) denial of conscience.  3) denial of infallibility. 


    But this is how women think.  Everyone is a victim.  Everyone is a good person who gets tricked.  It’s never anyone’s fault.  ….naive and immature.  …and heretical. 

    Boru's quote should have read as follows: 

    Quote
    Quote
    Moderism is so insidious that a person - even Popes even Boru - do not realise that they are victims; they do not realise that they are leaning dangerously into error.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #311 on: September 01, 2025, 05:35:52 PM »
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  • Exactly.  Boru is an unaware Modernist.  

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #312 on: Yesterday at 08:22:08 PM »
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  • Fr. Wathen was one of the many priests who, from the beginning, remained faithful and never went along with the new mass and religion of V2. I learned of him just after his death in 2006 when a friend told me about him. His book The Great Sacrilege was published about 1971, when the new mass and religion was not quite everywhere just yet, it is all about the new "mass." One of his other books, "Who Shall Ascend?" is attached as a pdf. Both are well worth reading.

    * Thank you - I'll definitely have a read.

    Also, here we avoid quoting Canon Law from the New (1983) Code. I attached a pdf of the 1917 Canon Law for you to use.....you will find that it does not have anything close to your above Canon Law quote - because all those things within the "The Divine Deposit" are unchangeable. Why? Because God ("Divine") is the one who deposited all those things in there. All those things in the "Divine Deposit (of faith)" are to be believed, preserved, defended and promulgated, not changed. Nobody can change anything within it.

    * That was my point. Because sacraments are part of the divine deposit, their substance, protected by the Holy Ghost, remains unchanged.

    The NO Canon Law in your quote is right when it says: "it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirement for their validity...". The sacrament's validity was previously, already approved and defined by the Supreme Authority of the Church, so what PPVI did was he made and defined his own NO sacrament, then he approved it.

    * Pope Paul VI was the Supreme authority. This means he had the authority to "approve or define". He could not touch the substance - that is divinely protected - but he could lawfully make changes.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #313 on: Yesterday at 08:55:43 PM »
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  • Boru's quote should have read as follows:

    Quote
    Moderism is so insidious that a person - even Popes even Boru - do not realise that they are victims; they do not realise that they are leaning dangerously into error.


    The more I learn and read, the more I see that every single one of us is infected to some degree. Modernism is incredibly insidious - it has warped everyone's understanding of what the Church is and what we are to believe or not believe. All I do know, without fear of being wrong, is that the safest course of action is to follow what the saints did: they followed and submitted to the Church of Rome - founded by Christ - and resisted the human error. Like St. Athanasius did. If the Church was foundered as the Mystical Body of Christ, it cannot suddenly not be the Mystical Body of Christ simply because of human failings. Christ promised that the means of obtaining grace for our salvation would not fail. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #314 on: Yesterday at 10:25:41 PM »
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  • If the Church was foundered as the Mystical Body of Christ, it cannot suddenly not be the Mystical Body of Christ simply because of human failings. Christ promised that the means of obtaining grace for our salvation would not fail.
    Your error is that you falsely define the Church as the pope.  Or those in new-rome as the Church.  Or some combination thereof.

    You are personally defining what "the gates of hell shall not prevail" means, and then applying it to the V2 church.  But Christ was not that specific.  He never promised that the Church would always remain in rome, or that the pope would always remain orthodox.  Theologians for centuries have said that the idea that a pope could not become a heretic is a "pious belief".  Even they knew that such an idea is not a doctrine. 

    The number of people who stayed true to Christ during His passion was a handful.  11 of the 12 apostles fled.  There's no doctrine which says that the Church could not succuмb to heresy to a very high %, if not most.  And that +ABL and a few hundred priests around the world would be all the remnant who resisted V2 and the apostasy.  There's NOTHING CONTRARY TO THE FAITH in this idea.  In fact, these few hundred Trad clerics, as a % of the whole cleric world, would be akin to the handful of faithful who remained faithful to Christ.

    Your entire argument for V2 rests on your false opinion that "God wouldn't allow V2 to be heretical".  Or that "God wouldn't allow the Church to fall into such disarray".  But scholars say that the Arian heresy engulfed 95% of catholics and that was long, long ago. 

    The historical parallels to V2 are all there; it's just V2 had the new dimension - a string of heretical popes.  Or a string of non-popes who pretended to be catholic.  Either way, this is a unique thing of history.  But there's NOTHING IN THE FAITH WHICH SAYS THIS CAN'T HAPPEN.  You (and many others) just DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT the possibility.  Your entire position rests on the "pious belief" that a pope cannot become a heretic.  Or that a non-pope can't sneak in and play pretend. 

    But our Faith isn't based on "pious beliefs".  We have to accept what is.  We have to accept that God's ways are mysterious.  And many times unpredictable.