Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 04:44:21 AM

Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 04:44:21 AM: .

Truth is not a question (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30015&min=45#p4).

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 04:59:14 AM: .

Truth is not the only thing that is not a question.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 05:01:35 AM: .

Beauty is not a question.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 05:03:37 AM: .

Goodness is not a question.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on February 24, 2014, 05:24:07 AM: .

The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, looked Truth in the eyes and asked a question.

But he did not stick around for the answer.

He just spoke: "What is truth?" And then, he turned on his heel -- and he walked away, to his eternal destiny ... leaving the Truth behind him!

NOW, that ("What is truth?") is a question, but truth, per se, is not a question.

Nor is beauty a question; nor is goodness a question.

These things are not a question: goodness, truth, and beauty.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: bowler on February 24, 2014, 01:46:17 PM: These things are not a question: ~~goodness, truth, and~~ beauty

I'm not too sure that beauty be in there with the others:

(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4924971522198147&pid=1.7)
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 12, 2014, 07:48:21 AM: .

The world would be better off without some breeds of dog.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: holysoulsacademy on March 12, 2014, 07:58:05 AM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

The world would be better off without some breeds of dog.

.
:roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: holysoulsacademy on March 12, 2014, 08:04:15 AM: +AMDG+
EMBER WEDNESDAY IN LENT (2014 A.D.)
Feast Of SAINT GREGORY THE GREAT

Truth is not a question, neither is goodness or beauty.

By the same token, Evil is not a question it is always apparent.
Ugly is not a question it is always apparent.

The Father of Lies would like us to think otherwise.

Explaining Vatican II in light of Tradition is explaining evil and ugly in light of goodness and beauty.

"N'er the twain shall meet" ~ and that's the TRUTH!
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 12, 2014, 08:26:45 AM: Quote from: holysoulsacademy

+AMDG+

EMBER WEDNESDAY IN LENT (2014 A.D.)
Feast Of SAINT GREGORY THE GREAT

Truth is not a question, neither is goodness or beauty.

By the same token, Evil is not a question; it is always apparent.
Ugly is not a question; it is always apparent.

The Father of Lies would like us to think otherwise.

Explaining Vatican II in light of Tradition is explaining evil and ugly in light of goodness and beauty.

"N'er the twain shall meet" ~ and that's the TRUTH!

Thank you.

Sometimes it seems there are those who wouldn't know truth when it hits them in the face.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 12, 2014, 08:37:07 AM: .

Pontius Pilate, for example, looked into the face of Truth Incarnate and asked,

"What is truth?"

But he didn't stick around to learn the answer. Imagine living your whole life and then 2,000 years later, you're only remembered for one three-word sentence that was the turning point of you eternal destiny, when at the time, you entirely ignored it. What a tragedy.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: TKGS on March 12, 2014, 10:40:24 AM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
Imagine living your whole life and then 2,000 years later, you're only remembered for one three-word sentence that was the turning point of you eternal destiny, when at the time, you entirely ignored it. What a tragedy.

Pilate was recalled to Rome soon after the Crucifixion of Christ (for reasons unconnected with the Crucifixion) and another governor took his place. The records of his return to Rome do not exist in the Roman records that still do exist and he seemed to have disappeared from history. According to Catholic Encyclopedia he died before he reached Rome.

However, according to traditions in the Ethiopian and/or Coptic Churches, Pilate later repented of his sins against Christ and is venerated as a Saint on some Eastern calendars. He may have been shipwrecked on the coast of northern Africa on his way to Rome.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 12, 2014, 07:04:31 PM: Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Imagine living your whole life and then 2,000 years later, you're only remembered for one three-word sentence that was the turning point of your eternal destiny, when at the time, you entirely ignored it. What a tragedy.

Pilate was recalled to Rome soon after the Crucifixion of Christ (for reasons unconnected with the Crucifixion) and another governor took his place. The records of his return to Rome do not exist in the Roman records that still do exist and he seemed to have disappeared from history. According to Catholic Encyclopedia he died before he reached Rome.

However, according to traditions in the Ethiopian and/or Coptic Churches, Pilate later repented of his sins against Christ and is venerated as a Saint on some Eastern calendars. He may have been shipwrecked on the coast of northern Africa on his way to Rome.

That's fascinating, TKGS. If you ever find a list of specific Eastern calendars that have his name, please post them!

I was thinking about this question he asked Our Lord, and thought that he must have thought about it for the rest of his life. How could that not be a gateway for God's grace in one's soul?

But imagine, WHAT IF Pilate HAD waited for an answer, and by thus waiting had he then heard the answer from Jesus..............

How does the following sound, as a possible quote from what Our Lord would have replied? As follows:

Jesus Christ: "Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was
I born, and for this came I into the world : that I
should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is
of the truth, heareth my voice."

Pilate: "What is truth?"
(He pauses, and waits for the answer.)

Jesus Christ: "Truth is not firstly a question of words
but of the ideas for which the words stand."
(Pilate continues to look at Jesus...)

Does that sound like anything Our Lord could have said, in answer to Pilate? Does anyone recognize the voice of God in that proposition?! Or, is it rather the voice of something far different from God?

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: holysoulsacademy on March 12, 2014, 07:26:40 PM: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:

This is too much laughter for Lent!
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Wessex on March 13, 2014, 05:35:18 AM: Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Imagine living your whole life and then 2,000 years later, you're only remembered for one three-word sentence that was the turning point of you eternal destiny, when at the time, you entirely ignored it. What a tragedy.

Pilate was recalled to Rome soon after the Crucifixion of Christ (for reasons unconnected with the Crucifixion) and another governor took his place. The records of his return to Rome do not exist in the Roman records that still do exist and he seemed to have disappeared from history. According to Catholic Encyclopedia he died before he reached Rome.

However, according to traditions in the Ethiopian and/or Coptic Churches, Pilate later repented of his sins against Christ and is venerated as a Saint on some Eastern calendars. He may have been shipwrecked on the coast of northern Africa on his way to Rome.

Life is full of such speculation ..... and how credible are records, anyway? A forward thinker would repeat Henry Ford's equally famous saying about history. My friends keep talking about all that 'missing history' which conveniently emerges to help those Medievalists in inventive mode. The Tudors would in turn revive/embroider the noble ways of Medieval times and the Victorians would do the same with the Tudors. And how I in turn like all that Victoriana for her 'hidden truths'! I also like that saying about a message getting handed down in time from person to person where the original 'truth' keeps getting altered slightly each time.

I believe there is a need in history for an honest Pilate figure to remind us that truth is a constituent of power inside the human jungle and that idle speculation is entertainment for the "if only" crowd. Until some brave soul comes along with a handful of absolutes! And good luck to him; he will need it!
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Clemens Maria on March 13, 2014, 11:15:47 AM: Wessex, that one went right over my head. Either I'm getting old or I'm just not that intelligent.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Nishant on March 13, 2014, 12:54:01 PM: Quote
However, according to traditions in the Ethiopian and/or Coptic Churches, Pilate later repented of his sins against Christ and is venerated as a Saint on some Eastern calendars. He may have been shipwrecked on the coast of northern Africa on his way to Rome.

This is the Letter Pontius Pilate is purported to have written to the Emperor Claudius after his conversion and, although still much disputed, is the major historical basis on which we can infer that Pilate may have converted.

Quote
There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or, made trial of): for the Jєωs through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he then (or this God of the Hebrews, then) came when I was governor of Judea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jєωs calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to law.

But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jєωs kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jєωs. And these things have I reported (unto thy mightiness) for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (Lat. lest any lie otherwise) and though shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jєωs.

F.F. Bruce, a New Testament scholar says,

Quote
About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate."
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 13, 2014, 09:54:51 PM: .

Quote

...rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders,...

I wonder why there have been no mystics or early Fathers who have mentioned this detail, "dry-shod?"

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 22, 2014, 04:29:31 PM: .

In Epistemology, when it's a bit difficult to know what consequences arise from a fuzzy definition or a weak principle the effects of which are perhaps indeterminate, it is often useful to consider some examples of the effects of the contradictory proposition.

This thread is titled "Truth is not a question." When we are interested in knowing the effects of the proposition that truth is not a question, but we fail to come up with any good examples, applying the method above results in the following. Drop the negative element and pronounce the affirmative:

What happens when you say that truth IS a question?

Post (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30623&min=5#p1)
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Quote from: Matthew

Actually, out of a dozen families in Austin, TX that come to my SSPX chapel every other week (whenever the SSPX Austin chapel doesn't have Mass), ALL of them are against the Resistance, except for one couple.

It's a shame they are all so blind. Here they drive hours (plural) on Sunday so they won't have to miss Mass every other week, so they seem quite dedicated on paper, yet they can't see what's going on in the SSPX.

This reminds me of a conversation I had recently with the parents of Stephen Heiner. They told me they have two daughters (sisters of Stephen) who live in St. Mary's Kansas, and attend the SSPX chapel there. I asked if they are on the side of Bishop Fellay or if they attend the Resistance Masses in St. Mary's. They replied that both daughters are on the side of the Society, because one of them is married to a man who is a nephew of one of the priests (she named the priest but I forgot his name) and that his family has several vocations in the Society, a brother, and priests and nuns. Therefore, there is a social bond, a kind of groupthink of common loyalty that holds +Fellay and the Capitulants as a sort of untouchable standard (not their literal words). It seems to me this is the same "blindness" that Matthew refers to, where they can't see what's going on in the SSPX.
.

Well, you know there is another relatively famous example of this: John MacF. who used to post on CI and Ignis Ardens. His son is a (newly-ordained, "Le Roux" brand) SSPX priest, so he's kind of stuck, as it were. Humanly speaking, it takes a lot of guts to start attending Resistance Masses when your son is still an SSPX priest in good standing.

It doesn't excuse it, nor does it exempt him from the future consequences of ignoring the truth -- but at least it is understandable human behavior.

I hesitated to mention him by name, but it seems we are past being so closed-minded now. His sisters probably are not ashamed of their blind loyalty, since it's a matter of social bonds that ties them, more than the faith. If not, then they would be happy to announce their emancipation therefrom. Who knows, they could be the rolling snowball that starts an avalanche.

Women in general are very concerned with everyone's feelings, and how they feel about family relations could easily outweigh their adherence to objective doctrine. This is why it usually takes a man to keep the family's faith on track.

But in any case, a reluctance to start attending Resistance Masses is certainly well-described as an understandable human behavior.

As for the truth ("It doesn't excuse it, nor does it exempt him from the future consequences of ignoring the truth"), maybe we shouldn't forget how Fr. Themann defines it:

"Truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand."

When you start putting down into black and white what truth is and what truth is not, you had better be really, really careful. Because there are consequences, such as the consequences of ignoring the proper definition, in favor of some new concoction, which see.

For someone to whom feelings are paramount, truth itself becomes relative, because "the ideas for which the words stand" could be "firstly a question of" how other family members feel about where we go to Mass today, for example.

NOTE: Truth itself would become relative, because, as Fr. Themann says, truth is a question.

.

In case it isn't obvious, when Fr. Themann wrote these words, "Truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand," he was writing several things, among which is the proposition that truth is a question. Therefore, Fr. Themann did in fact say that "truth is a question," even if he did not literally write those exact words in that exact order, because what he did write INCLUDES those words in that order, as a logical implication, and directly consequent to what he did write, which see.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 22, 2014, 10:41:10 PM: .

In order to develop this theme a little more clearly, perhaps it's not beyond the scope of CI readers for me to add the following. (But on the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken.) The source sentence of Fr. Themann is this:

"Truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand."

From this sentence (which is a proposition, albeit a poorly worded one) we can, at least indirectly, derive other propositions. I will now make a sample list of some of them here:

source (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=30015&min=35#p3)

"Truth is firstly a question." -- That is BTW, a complete sentence, and it is a proposition.

From this proposition can be said to follow these consequents:

Truth is a question.
MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, truth is a question.
More than anything truth can represent, truth is a question.
More than anything or anyone that has been called "Truth," truth is firstly a question.
Setting all of ontology aside as superfluous, truth is firstly a question.
If truth is firstly a question, then truth cannot be an answer.
Truth with all of its constituent elements, and all things known, are mutually exclusive.
Truth does not answer anything, but instead, truth raises doubts.
When something raises doubts it calls to mind that which is not known.
If truth raises doubts then truth, at least in part, falls under the category of things not known.
That part of truth which is so categorized is, in a word, unknowable.
Such truth, could be, for example, non-existent.
Consequently, truth, for all we know, might be entirely imaginary.
Truth is found in the realm of the unknown.
Truth is not found anywhere, for it cannot be found.
Truth has no substance.
Truth is a chimera, a mirage, a pseudo-reality.
If God is truth then God does not exist.
There is no God but truth, but there is no truth, therefore God is not.
Truth is more than one question.
Truth is a series of questions which has an order of prominence, one to the next.
Truth can be arranged according to primary, secondary, &c., constituent questions.
The number of questions which constitute truth is not known.
The number of questions which constitute truth could be infinite.
It may be impossible to know how many questions there are which constitute truth.
Even if the number of questions that constitute truth could be known, the number cannot be communicated.

And so forth and so on. (Note: this list is evoked entirely from #G, below.)

Words have consequences.

In case you've forgotten, the source proposition is the following:

"Truth is not firstly a question of words
but of the ideas for which the words stand."
~ Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX

Furthermore, in regards to what we can DIRECTLY (as opposed to indirectly, as above) derive from this proposition, what are some examples of that?

Or, as the previous post introduced as to what an appropriate epistemological exercise might ask: What other propositions CANNOT be derived directly from this source proposition? Consequently, we have the following:

Directly from this, which of the following statements CANNOT be derived?

A) Truth is firstly a question of the ideas for which words stand.

B) Truth is not secondly a question of the ideas for which words stand.

C) Truth is a question of words, but not firstly a question of words.

D) Truth is firstly a question of something other than words.

E) Truth is a question.

F) Truth is not a question.

G) Truth is firstly a question.

H) Truth is not firstly a question.

I) Truth is firstly not a question.

J) Truth is secondly a question.

K) Truth is not secondly a question.

L) Truth is secondly not a question.

M) Truth is thirdly a question.

N) Truth is not thirdly a question.

O) Truth is thirdly not a question.

P) None of the above.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: rlee on March 23, 2014, 04:39:50 PM: Weasels.

If the words do not clearly convey the ideas for which they stand then how do we ascertain the Truth. We cannot because the author of the words is later free to assert that the ideas were really not what you thought they were upon hearing or reading them.

Too many in the SSPX are now habitually speaking in this way, especially the S.G..

So, it's either that they are in semantic quandaries due to poor formation coupled with the inability to think logically, or they speak deliberately with the forked tongues of Modernists.

Exactly what St Pius X fore told in Pascendi. The use of this kind of language is a sure sign of a bad infection of Modernism.

The fact that they want to embed themselves in New Church indicates that the latter option is very most likely.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 24, 2014, 04:06:40 AM: .

I really wish it were not the case, but there is too much evidence to ignore it.

Quote

Too many in the SSPX are now habitually speaking in this way, especially the S.G..

So, it's either that they are in semantic quandaries due to poor formation coupled with the inability to think logically, or they speak deliberately with the forked tongues of Modernists.

From Recusant #14, p. 14 -- the Empire of Ambiguity:
_______________________________________________

Final Reply of Fr. Fernando Altamira, SSPX
to
Fr. Bouchacort
[/b]

Monday 6 January, 2014

Dear Fr. Bouchacourt,

After my sermon of 22nd December about the new Rosary Crusade, you asked me to do two things to avoid "measures."

...The situation of our Society, the Society of Saint Pius X, has been going on for a good number of years. It worsened dramatically in the last two and [a] half years, and became more evident and explicit for many of us priests.

This state of things is caused by the ideas, words and mistakes of our Superior General, Bishop Bernard Fellay, [also] by the actions he has taken during his government. Bishop Fellay has almost made language of The Truth disappear in it, by bringing about the reign - in the lesser cases - THE EMPIRE OF THE AMBIGUITY, and in other worse cases expressing errors against Catholic Doctrine (see the Doctrinal Declaration of April 2012). And better not talk about his statement on the modern mass: If Archbishop Lefebvre had seen the New Mass celebrated properly, he would not have taken the step that he did (Card. Canizares); taking in vain the name of our founder to say that!
...

___________________________________________

From p. 7, same issue,

Declaration
by
Fr. Martin Fuchs, SSPX
[/b]

...Again and again I had to realize that no clear language was being spoken any more. So the second intention in the rosary crusade reads: "For the return of Tradition to into the church..." What is meant by "the church?" The Catholic Church as she was founded by Jesus Christ, or the post-conciliar church? If it means the Catholic Church, then no return is possible because Tradition is an integral part of the Catholic Church; if the post-conciliar church is meant, then it is [she] who left Tradition, then it is [she] who has to return to Tradition, not Tradition to the Church.
...

__________________________________________

From p. 16 & 17, same issue,

Letter of the Colombian Faithful
in Support of Fr. Altamira

Santa Fe, Bogota, 10th January, 2014
...

2. Regarding the relations with Rome, Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX priests taught us this principle: the SSPX won't be engaged in negotiations to achieve an agreement with apostate Rome, as long as it is not converted, as long as Rome doesn't return to the Truth (General Chapter 2006).

3. In 2012, we were greatly surprised and perplexed to learn that the SSPX leaders were secretly involved in efforts to place the work of Archbishop Lefebvre in submission to apostate, modernist, blind and erring Rome, thus sacrificing the very same Truth.

4. ...in order to achieve an agreement of 'regularization', the authorities have made use of a constant ambiguity of language, abuse of authority, excessive diplomacy, secrets, political calculations and strange tricks... all of which has sown doubt and confusion among the faithful.

5. Furthermore, this tactic of ambiguity, along with other similar signs, lead us to believe that the same organization which the pre-conciliar Magisterium denounced and condemned, the well-known nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr that occupied Rome and introduced modernism (the synthesis of all heresies) into the Church, is influencing the decisions of the Society. It is working with the same cunning and brutality as it did when it occupied Rome: trying to destroy the Society by means of false obedience.

6. We are painfully aware that the battle against the enemies of Truth, the battle in defence of the Faith is no longer the combat of the leadership of the Society or its priority...
...

10. We understand that obedience must be directed towards the Faith and Truth. Therefore, all obedience regarding the seeking of unity with apostate Rome, is false, illusory and involves a grave betrayal of the Truth which is Christ our Lord.
...

_____________________________________

The point is, when you play fast and loose with what truth is and what truth is not, you're playing a very serious game.

"Truth is not firstly a question of words
but of the ideas for which the words stand."

What a pile of horse manure.

:barf:

.
.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 24, 2014, 04:18:21 AM: .

Words have consequences.

In case you've forgotten, the source proposition is the following:

"Truth is not firstly a question of words
but of the ideas for which the words stand."
~ Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX

What other propositions CANNOT be derived directly from this source proposition?

Directly from this proposition, which of
the following statements CANNOT be derived?

A) Truth is firstly a question of the ideas for which words stand.

B) Truth is not secondly a question of the ideas for which words stand.

C) Truth is a question of words, but not firstly a question of words.

D) Truth is firstly a question of something other than words.

E) Truth is a question.

F) Truth is not a question.

G) Truth is firstly a question.

H) Truth is not firstly a question.

I) Truth is firstly not a question.

J) Truth is secondly a question.

K) Truth is not secondly a question.

L) Truth is secondly not a question.

M) Truth is thirdly a question.

N) Truth is not thirdly a question.

O) Truth is thirdly not a question.

P) None of the above.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 24, 2014, 04:35:40 AM: .

As Fr. David Hewko so aptly observes, Modernism is a deadly trap out of which it is humanly impossible to free one's self. Only by the grace of God can you escape it.

Fr. Pfeiffer says that Modernism is the GRAND SEWER of all heresies.

Fr. Fernando Altamira says that the Truth must be told and defended, because doing so is the same as preaching and defending Christ, Our Lord. He has said, and rightly so, "I am the Truth, the Way and the Life." To talk about the primacy of Truth" is the same as saying "the primacy of the Faith," because we are talking about the Highest Truth, i.e., Truth given by God, to which we must adhere. That is the Faith; that is what "keeping the Faith" is, the adhesion of my intellect to Truth given by God "through the authority of God revealing it," because it is God who reveals them and teaches them.

.
Title: Truth is not a question.
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 24, 2014, 04:38:34 AM: .

And then, there's Fr. Themann, who says that
truth is not firstly a question of words but of the ideas for which the words stand.

Yuk. :barf:

.