Author Topic: True Resistance to Vatican II NEEDS the Catacombs (Read 5085 times)

Matthew · « **on:** April 07, 2013, 05:43:23 PM »

My friend was at our Resistance chapel, during our (one) visit from Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr. Hewko. We were in the "chapel" before Mass, and he said:

"Aah, it's the catacombs!" in a matter-of-fact tone filled with sadness and true emotion.

I'll jump right to my thesis:

Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.

Just look at SGG -- expensive, it can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, statues, etc. are second to none.

What do the parishioners feel they're missing? Absolutely nothing.

It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.

I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".

Coziness is having an honest-to-goodness store (or chapel) in your basement, compared to a "regular" store or chapel.

There's something "cozy" about a small, one-room library that doesn't have everything, but it's in your backyard in a large workshop, or in your basement.

Now that we've defined "cozy", I think that it REALLY HELPS the mindset of parishioners for a Tridentine Mass center chapel to be somewhat "cozy" and not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.

Zeitun · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2013, 05:47:42 PM »

What is SGG?

Coziness is great until your the one with back problems who has to stand in the back of the "basement" for the entire Mass or kneel on concrete floors with bad knees.

Thanks for the reminder that you've only had ONE Resistance Mass. :wink:

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2013, 06:20:47 PM »

Quote from: Zeitun

What is SGG?

Coziness is great until your the one with back problems who has to stand in the back of the "basement" for the entire Mass or kneel on concrete floors with bad knees.

Thanks for the reminder that you've only had ONE Resistance Mass. :wink:

SGG is St. Gertrude the Great in Ohio. Eamon has talked at length about the appearance of everything perfect, whereas there are various problems under the surface.

Yes, I understand that the Catholic Faithful naturally want to make things better and better -- but nevertheless I'm on to something.

Bishop Williamson once noted that various South American Catholics have very strong faith, amidst great poverty.

Is it a sad fact of human nature that you can be materially "OK" OR have strong faith? Apparently so.

And yes, I'm sure I sound like a broken record about the "attention" (or lack thereof) that my Resistance chapel here receives from priests in the Resistance :)

Zeitun · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2013, 07:56:59 PM »

I've read that SGG has problems with lay leadership. It's too bad. Apparently one family has a lot of control over the parish. But I could be wrong about that.

The catacomb environment of the Resistance certainly is appealing, particularly to souls who prefer closer contact with the priest. And the community has built social ties with each other quickly.

Hopefully as more priests are liberated from the SSPX Texas can be included in the circuit.

bowler · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2013, 07:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I'll jump right to my thesis:

Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.

Just look at SGG -- expensive, it can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, statues, etc. are second to none.

What do the parishioners feel they're missing? Absolutely nothing.

It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.

I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
.... not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.

I think you are expressing better what I was trying to say on my thread Marble Attracts New Parishioners . It is not our job to build churches that look like SGG. I never heard of St. Athanasius and the FEW others who opposed the Arian Heresy (which, as St. Jerome said; "the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian") building any churches during their fight. In the same way it is not our purpose to build monument churches during this Heresy of Modernism, the cesspool of all heresies! Our duty today is operation survival!

bowler · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2013, 08:10:27 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.

I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" ...... not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.

Very well put. Thanks.

kaylaVeronica · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2013, 08:19:16 PM »

I used to get really depressed by the fact that we were cut off from some of the most grand and beautiful churches and cathedrals because they didn't offer the true Mass.

That kind of thinking is pointless, and a bit shallow. Sure it would be "nice," but it's not necessary. If we have the truth, we have everything.

The age of Christendom is long gone, and we'll have to fight to keep the faith. I'm just thankful that I've found it and pray for grace not to lose it. I agree that being the "catacombs" will help maintain this mindset.

Domitilla · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2013, 08:23:42 PM »

Yes, the Truth IS everything! The Truth will set us free ..

1st Mansion Tenant · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2013, 12:29:40 AM »

What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2013, 01:19:19 AM »

Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant

What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?

That's a tricky one.

Should we intentionally not try to improve our chapels so that we keep some element of humility? On the other hand, we should have some things -- maybe just a few -- that are extravagant to show our respect for the Blessed Sacrament.

Anyhow, I think for starters we should not compromise on doctrine, or be tempted to "go along to get along" just so we can partake of these massive Trad establishments that "have everything". If we are too attached to these "real churches" we will despise small groups like the Resistance which offer the Truth, holy priests, but unfortunately can't offer too many amenities in the aesthetics department.

On Holy Thursday the organ went silent after the Gloria (as it should -- this is liturgically required) and I was admiring how beautiful it was to hear the congregation singing the other parts (Sanctus, Agnus Dei) acapella. I think that might help to illustrate my point.

Actually, the chapel I've set up has an electronic organ (a pretty large one).

Anyhow, the goal should be: to be dignified, beautiful, worthy of the Blessed Sacrament. But every single thing in the chapel NEED NOT BE GLAMOROUS or expensive. Think: monastic cell. Clean, spartan, with a few holy pictures and things to raise our minds upwards (we're not iconoclasts), but incredibly conducive to prayer.

Sometimes less is more.

But the real issue is: we're at war. When at war, you don't try to bring ALL the comforts of home with you. Sure, you have a certain minimum of facilities, but none of them are as deluxe as what you have back at home when you're not fighting the enemy.

2 humble chapels for $10,000 each is better than 1 nicer $20,000 chapel. It's about reaching and benefiting the most souls, it's about the Faith, and by extension it's about the Mass. Having the nicest chapel to woo the superficial "smells and bells" people away from their precious Indult? Who cares. Those people will come to a humble chapel if they are truly interested in the full package of Truth (opposing Vatican II freely, etc.) If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.

Now apply this to the new seminary in Virginia. See why it's a bad idea? It's the exact opposite of what they should be doing, if they had the right mindset.

1st Mansion Tenant · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2013, 02:56:59 AM »

I was thinking about trying to put together a Mass kit, the best as I can, and stash it away for future emergencies. Priests may not always be able to carry them openly someday. And when Fr P was here after the airline damaged his kit, it would have been nice to pull out some replacement pieces. Does this sound like something that might be helpful?

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2013, 03:05:09 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?

That's a tricky one.

Should we intentionally not try to improve our chapels so that we keep some element of humility? On the other hand, we should have some things -- maybe just a few -- that are extravagant to show our respect for the Blessed Sacrament.

Anyhow, I think for starters we should not compromise on doctrine, or be tempted to "go along to get along" just so we can partake of these massive Trad establishments that "have everything". If we are too attached to these "real churches" we will despise small groups like the Resistance which offer the Truth, holy priests, but unfortunately can't offer too many amenities in the aesthetics department.

On Holy Thursday the organ went silent after the Gloria (as it should -- this is liturgically required) and I was admiring how beautiful it was to hear the congregation singing the other parts (Sanctus, Agnus Dei) acapella. I think that might help to illustrate my point.

Actually, the chapel I've set up has an electronic organ (a pretty large one).

Anyhow, the goal should be: to be dignified, beautiful, worthy of the Blessed Sacrament. But every single thing in the chapel NEED NOT BE GLAMOROUS or expensive. Think: monastic cell. Clean, spartan, with a few holy pictures and things to raise our minds upwards (we're not iconoclasts), but incredibly conducive to prayer.

Sometimes less is more.

But the real issue is: we're at war. When at war, you don't try to bring ALL the comforts of home with you. Sure, you have a certain minimum of facilities, but none of them are as deluxe as what you have back at home when you're not fighting the enemy.

2 humble chapels for $10,000 each is better than 1 nicer $20,000 chapel. It's about reaching and benefiting the most souls, it's about the Faith, and by extension it's about the Mass. Having the nicest chapel to woo the superficial "smells and bells" people away from their precious Indult? Who cares. Those people will come to a humble chapel if they are truly interested in the full package of Truth (opposing Vatican II freely, etc.) If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.

Now apply this to the new seminary in Virginia. See why it's a bad idea? It's the exact opposite of what they should be doing, if they had the right mindset.

You are now saying almost word for word the exact same as I explained in my thread Marble Attracts New Parishioners, except you are saying build two $10,000 chapels instead of one $20,000, when I was comparing one large church versus 20 small chapels. In short, we are talking the same thing. Yet, let me interject my further observations brought out by what you wrote, and get your take on this further "fine tuning" that I propose to undertake here:

I believe that it is natural for Catholics to want to let say "embellish" their little chapels, and that progression should be natural. By natural I mean that if someone wants to let's say, paint the altars to look like marble, and they offer to pay for it themselves or can do it themselves, that is a natural progression in "embellishing" the small chapel. It is natural because it was not forced on anyone. It was first offered as an idea, and accepted by the congregation, and then done by the person and given as a totally free gift.

What is "forcing a change" on everyone, an unnatural embellishment? When someone decides that the chapel needs whatever, and they start asking for donations, and ignore the opinions of the others that do not agree with the change and the burden. Monetary burdens imposed unnaturally will at some point pile up, and can bankrupt something in the future that is truly needed. In other words the people can get monetarily (and physically if they are forced to do it themselves) burned out by unnatural progression of forced embellishments of a chapel. This could happen even in a small chapel, however, it in NO WAY compares with the MOTHER OF ALL unnatural progression of forced embellishments, the construction of a large church that costs the same as 20 little chapels! ( the real mother of all forced embellishments is the new SSPX seminary)

Your comments?

bowler · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2013, 03:40:10 AM »

There were some objections to my use of the word "humble" in my description of a small chapel, which prompted me to post the quote below. I am posting it here to make it clear that by humble we only meant a small church, it does not mean AT ALL that the little chapel has to be spartan, only that it is small, hence I said 20 chapels spread all over the world instead of one big church in one place.

Fellow Catholics, we are in the middle of a war surrounded on all sides by the enemy (the devil and his knowing or unknowing accomplices), this is no time to be building monuments, it is a time to focus all of our energies to fight tirelessly for survival of our faith. I believe the Neo-SSPX and Ecclesia Dei Indult mass mindset of solving the crisis by building a "Mass center" as their oasis "Church" (yes, with a capital C) that has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish (churches that can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations etc., second to none) is not the solution to the problem. In fact, it is just another problem, for it is just a selfish way of dealing with the problem. The only important objective during this time of war is the preservation of the faith!

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Elizabeth
Hi Bowler, you asked for comments, so here is mine:

From the bottom of my heart I believe there cannot be enough beauty to honor Our Lord and His Blessed Mother.

If the very best one can possibly do is humble and poor, may God bless the honst effort. But whenever there is an opportunity or the talent to create something beautiful for the glory of God, it should be done.

Our Catholic tradition is full of stories about saints and holy people finding beautiful sacred objects, hiding statures during wars and persecutions, miraculous images happening and so forth.

One reason some of us are *nervous* about Pope Francis is his Humble thing. Plain and non-descript is masonic, Jєωιѕн and Protestant.

What is better for the faithful, to build?:

One St. Isidore like this:

or 20 small chapels like this spread over the World?:

Quote from: Elizabeth
(please pardon my poor grammar in earlier post)

I have to admit you've got a point, Bowler. BUT how about painting faux marble and gorgeous interiors? Instead of plain old wood? If there are artists available?

And making lovely gardens with free or easily propagated plants and flowers?

I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.

John Grace · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2013, 05:52:29 AM »

Quote

There's something "cozy" about a small, one-room library that doesn't have everything, but it's in your backyard in a large workshop, or in your basement.

One can get too "cozy" though. I remember being at Mass and prior to Mass having to assist with extinguishing the fire in the stove. The priest found the room too warm so three or four of us had to shovel out hot coals into the garden.

Seraphia · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2013, 07:31:52 AM »

Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant

I was thinking about trying to put together a Mass kit, the best as I can, and stash it away for future emergencies. Priests may not always be able to carry them openly someday. And when Fr P was here after the airline damaged his kit, it would have been nice to pull out some replacement pieces. Does this sound like something that might be helpful?

I've been trying to do that myself. Just in case. Our family has been a 'prepper' for years and it makes sense to prepare for something so very important. Fr. Hewko's Mass kit has been stolen at least once as well.