Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on April 07, 2013, 05:43:23 PM
-
My friend was at our Resistance chapel, during our (one) visit from Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr. Hewko. We were in the "chapel" before Mass, and he said:
"Aah, it's the catacombs!" in a matter-of-fact tone filled with sadness and true emotion.
I'll jump right to my thesis:
Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.
Just look at SGG -- expensive, it can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, statues, etc. are second to none.
What do the parishioners feel they're missing? Absolutely nothing.
It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
Coziness is having an honest-to-goodness store (or chapel) in your basement, compared to a "regular" store or chapel.
There's something "cozy" about a small, one-room library that doesn't have everything, but it's in your backyard in a large workshop, or in your basement.
Now that we've defined "cozy", I think that it REALLY HELPS the mindset of parishioners for a Tridentine Mass center chapel to be somewhat "cozy" and not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.
-
What is SGG?
Coziness is great until your the one with back problems who has to stand in the back of the "basement" for the entire Mass or kneel on concrete floors with bad knees.
Thanks for the reminder that you've only had ONE Resistance Mass. :wink:
-
What is SGG?
Coziness is great until your the one with back problems who has to stand in the back of the "basement" for the entire Mass or kneel on concrete floors with bad knees.
Thanks for the reminder that you've only had ONE Resistance Mass. :wink:
SGG is St. Gertrude the Great in Ohio. Eamon has talked at length about the appearance of everything perfect, whereas there are various problems under the surface.
Yes, I understand that the Catholic Faithful naturally want to make things better and better -- but nevertheless I'm on to something.
Bishop Williamson once noted that various South American Catholics have very strong faith, amidst great poverty.
Is it a sad fact of human nature that you can be materially "OK" OR have strong faith? Apparently so.
And yes, I'm sure I sound like a broken record about the "attention" (or lack thereof) that my Resistance chapel here receives from priests in the Resistance :)
-
I've read that SGG has problems with lay leadership. It's too bad. Apparently one family has a lot of control over the parish. But I could be wrong about that.
The catacomb environment of the Resistance certainly is appealing, particularly to souls who prefer closer contact with the priest. And the community has built social ties with each other quickly.
Hopefully as more priests are liberated from the SSPX Texas can be included in the circuit.
-
I'll jump right to my thesis:
Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.
Just look at SGG -- expensive, it can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, statues, etc. are second to none.
What do the parishioners feel they're missing? Absolutely nothing.
It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
.... not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.
I think you are expressing better what I was trying to say on my thread Marble Attracts New Parishioners . It is not our job to build churches that look like SGG. I never heard of St. Athanasius and the FEW others who opposed the Arian Heresy (which, as St. Jerome said; "the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian") building any churches during their fight. In the same way it is not our purpose to build monument churches during this Heresy of Modernism, the cesspool of all heresies! Our duty today is operation survival!
-
Given the current Crisis in the Church, a true resistance to Vatican II must preserve some element of "catacombs" to remind people that we are in an emergency situation. That things are not well.
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" ...... not try to re-create everything we've lost in Vatican II. Otherwise, we have a tendency to forget that we've lost anything.
Very well put. Thanks.
-
I used to get really depressed by the fact that we were cut off from some of the most grand and beautiful churches and cathedrals because they didn't offer the true Mass.
That kind of thinking is pointless, and a bit shallow. Sure it would be "nice," but it's not necessary. If we have the truth, we have everything.
The age of Christendom is long gone, and we'll have to fight to keep the faith. I'm just thankful that I've found it and pray for grace not to lose it. I agree that being the "catacombs" will help maintain this mindset.
-
Yes, the Truth IS everything! The Truth will set us free ..
-
What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?
-
What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?
That's a tricky one.
Should we intentionally not try to improve our chapels so that we keep some element of humility? On the other hand, we should have some things -- maybe just a few -- that are extravagant to show our respect for the Blessed Sacrament.
Anyhow, I think for starters we should not compromise on doctrine, or be tempted to "go along to get along" just so we can partake of these massive Trad establishments that "have everything". If we are too attached to these "real churches" we will despise small groups like the Resistance which offer the Truth, holy priests, but unfortunately can't offer too many amenities in the aesthetics department.
On Holy Thursday the organ went silent after the Gloria (as it should -- this is liturgically required) and I was admiring how beautiful it was to hear the congregation singing the other parts (Sanctus, Agnus Dei) acapella. I think that might help to illustrate my point.
Actually, the chapel I've set up has an electronic organ (a pretty large one).
Anyhow, the goal should be: to be dignified, beautiful, worthy of the Blessed Sacrament. But every single thing in the chapel NEED NOT BE GLAMOROUS or expensive. Think: monastic cell. Clean, spartan, with a few holy pictures and things to raise our minds upwards (we're not iconoclasts), but incredibly conducive to prayer.
Sometimes less is more.
But the real issue is: we're at war. When at war, you don't try to bring ALL the comforts of home with you. Sure, you have a certain minimum of facilities, but none of them are as deluxe as what you have back at home when you're not fighting the enemy.
2 humble chapels for $10,000 each is better than 1 nicer $20,000 chapel. It's about reaching and benefiting the most souls, it's about the Faith, and by extension it's about the Mass. Having the nicest chapel to woo the superficial "smells and bells" people away from their precious Indult? Who cares. Those people will come to a humble chapel if they are truly interested in the full package of Truth (opposing Vatican II freely, etc.) If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.
Now apply this to the new seminary in Virginia. See why it's a bad idea? It's the exact opposite of what they should be doing, if they had the right mindset.
-
I was thinking about trying to put together a Mass kit, the best as I can, and stash it away for future emergencies. Priests may not always be able to carry them openly someday. And when Fr P was here after the airline damaged his kit, it would have been nice to pull out some replacement pieces. Does this sound like something that might be helpful?
-
What would you suggest we do to further the catacombs cause?
That's a tricky one.
Should we intentionally not try to improve our chapels so that we keep some element of humility? On the other hand, we should have some things -- maybe just a few -- that are extravagant to show our respect for the Blessed Sacrament.
Anyhow, I think for starters we should not compromise on doctrine, or be tempted to "go along to get along" just so we can partake of these massive Trad establishments that "have everything". If we are too attached to these "real churches" we will despise small groups like the Resistance which offer the Truth, holy priests, but unfortunately can't offer too many amenities in the aesthetics department.
On Holy Thursday the organ went silent after the Gloria (as it should -- this is liturgically required) and I was admiring how beautiful it was to hear the congregation singing the other parts (Sanctus, Agnus Dei) acapella. I think that might help to illustrate my point.
Actually, the chapel I've set up has an electronic organ (a pretty large one).
Anyhow, the goal should be: to be dignified, beautiful, worthy of the Blessed Sacrament. But every single thing in the chapel NEED NOT BE GLAMOROUS or expensive. Think: monastic cell. Clean, spartan, with a few holy pictures and things to raise our minds upwards (we're not iconoclasts), but incredibly conducive to prayer.
Sometimes less is more.
But the real issue is: we're at war. When at war, you don't try to bring ALL the comforts of home with you. Sure, you have a certain minimum of facilities, but none of them are as deluxe as what you have back at home when you're not fighting the enemy.
2 humble chapels for $10,000 each is better than 1 nicer $20,000 chapel. It's about reaching and benefiting the most souls, it's about the Faith, and by extension it's about the Mass. Having the nicest chapel to woo the superficial "smells and bells" people away from their precious Indult? Who cares. Those people will come to a humble chapel if they are truly interested in the full package of Truth (opposing Vatican II freely, etc.) If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.
Now apply this to the new seminary in Virginia. See why it's a bad idea? It's the exact opposite of what they should be doing, if they had the right mindset.
You are now saying almost word for word the exact same as I explained in my thread Marble Attracts New Parishioners, except you are saying build two $10,000 chapels instead of one $20,000, when I was comparing one large church versus 20 small chapels. In short, we are talking the same thing. Yet, let me interject my further observations brought out by what you wrote, and get your take on this further "fine tuning" that I propose to undertake here:
I believe that it is natural for Catholics to want to let say "embellish" their little chapels, and that progression should be natural. By natural I mean that if someone wants to let's say, paint the altars to look like marble, and they offer to pay for it themselves or can do it themselves, that is a natural progression in "embellishing" the small chapel. It is natural because it was not forced on anyone. It was first offered as an idea, and accepted by the congregation, and then done by the person and given as a totally free gift.
What is "forcing a change" on everyone, an unnatural embellishment? When someone decides that the chapel needs whatever, and they start asking for donations, and ignore the opinions of the others that do not agree with the change and the burden. Monetary burdens imposed unnaturally will at some point pile up, and can bankrupt something in the future that is truly needed. In other words the people can get monetarily (and physically if they are forced to do it themselves) burned out by unnatural progression of forced embellishments of a chapel. This could happen even in a small chapel, however, it in NO WAY compares with the MOTHER OF ALL unnatural progression of forced embellishments, the construction of a large church that costs the same as 20 little chapels! ( the real mother of all forced embellishments is the new SSPX seminary)
Your comments?
-
There were some objections to my use of the word "humble" in my description of a small chapel, which prompted me to post the quote below. I am posting it here to make it clear that by humble we only meant a small church, it does not mean AT ALL that the little chapel has to be spartan, only that it is small, hence I said 20 chapels spread all over the world instead of one big church in one place.
Fellow Catholics, we are in the middle of a war surrounded on all sides by the enemy (the devil and his knowing or unknowing accomplices), this is no time to be building monuments, it is a time to focus all of our energies to fight tirelessly for survival of our faith. I believe the Neo-SSPX and Ecclesia Dei Indult mass mindset of solving the crisis by building a "Mass center" as their oasis "Church" (yes, with a capital C) that has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish (churches that can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations etc., second to none) is not the solution to the problem. In fact, it is just another problem, for it is just a selfish way of dealing with the problem. The only important objective during this time of war is the preservation of the faith!
Hi Bowler, you asked for comments, so here is mine:
From the bottom of my heart I believe there cannot be enough beauty to honor Our Lord and His Blessed Mother.
If the very best one can possibly do is humble and poor, may God bless the honst effort. But whenever there is an opportunity or the talent to create something beautiful for the glory of God, it should be done.
Our Catholic tradition is full of stories about saints and holy people finding beautiful sacred objects, hiding statures during wars and persecutions, miraculous images happening and so forth.
One reason some of us are *nervous* about Pope Francis is his Humble thing. Plain and non-descript is masonic, Jєωιѕн and Protestant.
What is better for the faithful, to build?:
One St. Isidore like this:
(http://www.saintisidore.org/pics/Outside%20St%20Isidore_3.jpg)
or 20 small chapels like this spread over the World?:
(http://www.pbpindiantribe.com/sub/snow/olschurch002.jpg)
(please pardon my poor grammar in earlier post)
I have to admit you've got a point, Bowler. BUT how about painting faux marble and gorgeous interiors? Instead of plain old wood? If there are artists available?
And making lovely gardens with free or easily propagated plants and flowers?
I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.
-
There's something "cozy" about a small, one-room library that doesn't have everything, but it's in your backyard in a large workshop, or in your basement.
One can get too "cozy" though. I remember being at Mass and prior to Mass having to assist with extinguishing the fire in the stove. The priest found the room too warm so three or four of us had to shovel out hot coals into the garden.
-
I was thinking about trying to put together a Mass kit, the best as I can, and stash it away for future emergencies. Priests may not always be able to carry them openly someday. And when Fr P was here after the airline damaged his kit, it would have been nice to pull out some replacement pieces. Does this sound like something that might be helpful?
I've been trying to do that myself. Just in case. Our family has been a 'prepper' for years and it makes sense to prepare for something so very important. Fr. Hewko's Mass kit has been stolen at least once as well.
-
I was thinking about trying to put together a Mass kit, the best as I can, and stash it away for future emergencies. Priests may not always be able to carry them openly someday. And when Fr P was here after the airline damaged his kit, it would have been nice to pull out some replacement pieces. Does this sound like something that might be helpful?
Thats a wonderful idea, Tenant.
Masses in the homes are not a novel idea. They have been around since 1968. Before that, masses have always been said periodically in homes.
I have put together 5 mass kits for new priests in the last 6 years.
I have lists of things needed and pictures of items you need to include in the kits. E bay is a wonderful source for used religious items.
I also order items from internet church supply companies.
The items purchased must be liturgically correct.
In my mass kits I have never included an alb or a surplice, but they are essential for a home chapel.
A small chalice should be purchased in case the priest cant bring his own.
Im willing to help anyone wanting to do this .
Im now posting a list of mass kit items that are essential.
This list is what I did. Costs may vary. Shop e bay first, and then go to online companies.
Linen is required for ALL altar items. Can buy perma press alb and surplice. Linen is better, since all priests may not use perma press.
Cant save as a PDF and cant post this file in Excell........so........Ill copy and paste! Sorry! PM me with your e mail, and Ill send the Excell file. Sorry about this mess. Just to give you an idea.
Mass Kit Items
item description proj costs
amice 26.5
cincture white 21
Cincture purple 21
cincture red 21
Cincture green 19
small altar linens pall, lavabo towel, corporal purificater 50
sick call stole 1 20
small lavabo bowl
cruets 6" 30
altar boards ? Cost for home chapel
9" altar crucifix 23
linen altar cloth (2nd and 3rd cloths 108x 28 177
altar frontal 55" Wx 72" long custom made 125
brass altar bell 4" 15
altar candlesticks 3-6" 25
missal stand ? Cost for home chapel
travel ciborium 5" K234 church supply warehouse 121
pyx and burse K207 church supply warehouse 55
paten K355 church supply warehouse 65
red Roman travel vest set
white Roman travel vest set
purple travel vestment set
green travel vestment set
surplice used on e bay 25
alb used on e bay 50
-
I don't know Matthew, when I first read your post, there was something meritorious about it, but for me personally, crisis or not, give me the grandest possible setting worthy of the Holy Sacrifice over the cozy catacomb any day.
Could be because I remember the many years of Mass in crowded basements, living rooms etc., using a small laundry room or pantry as the place where the priest put on his vestments and where confessions were heard.
Then there were the banquet halls that often reeked of stale beer and stinky day old cigarette smoke. . . . . . of course, after Mass you could add incense into that mix for whoever rented the place next lol
After only a few years of that, I think most would say they are ready to see Our Lord in a real Church - the more magnificent the better. Even if we wore blinders, driving the 2 hours each way is enough to remind most of us that we're in a crisis.
-
There is a lot to say for authentic and tasteful artwork in a chapel, regardless
of how 'fancy' it is.
A lot depends on the demeanor of people doing maintenance inside, and the
reduction of the amount of maintenance to a minimum, so that people can
come in and pray without a lot of distractions.
I went into a local church the other day to say a few prayers before a shrine
to Our Lady because it was a convenient location for my need. It is a Novus
Ordo church, one where I had spent a few years about 20 years ago, before
I came back to Tradition. While I was there reciting the Memorare and a
few Hail Marys, a number of people wandered about the church interior
moving palm trees, talking about what's planned for the altar area, closing
the video camera boxes mounted on the wall, chatting about things unrelated
to the church proper, and so on. They walked freely across the center aisle
without any act of recognition of the altar, but then, the tabernacle has been
moved to a remote corner so who cares? The stations of the Cross are
in a 1960's novel tile mosaic style that is really not much more than almost
ugly. They have always bothered me. Through all this, I was barely able to
keep my mind on the prayers I was trying to say. I had to leave, for my
presence there was an act out of place, as though I really had no right to
be there and even try this 'praying' thing.
So even if your chapel is humble, if it has beautiful statues, artwork, a real
tabernacle where it belongs, on the altar, and people who are respectful of
the Real Presence in their manner and actions, you have a real treasure,
and you should not be so shallow as to think less of it because it isn't worth
millions of dollars.
-
There's a lot to take in in the OP; I want to make sure that I'm not thinking emotionally, but my first reaction is not in agreement with what's been said so far.
It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
Is this really the reason we're in the mess we're in today? I thought it was GREC, Bishop Fellay & his cohorts, and Roman influence. I can see a case being made that says that there would be more resistance support if we were in 'catacombs', but I don't think thats true.
I'll explain: Surely those of weak faith will always be with us; it is the nature of men and of certain members of the Church- this existed even in the earliest catacomb-filled days, with some members of the Fatih weak, and selling out others, to their death(!). We can see who those weak members are now in seeing the actions of those who support a SSPX-Roman regularization, and in those who fail to speak out against it. But we are "still here", are we not? Certainly the Truth made itself clear to those of us now supporting the resistance.
If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.
And even if some people came to Tradition by way of comfort, is it not better to be barely saved than not be saved at all? Don't take me the wrong way when I ask: Who cares what the "quality" of parishioner is- as long as we help others save their soul, isn't that most important? Did not you yourself say that the purpose of the cathedrals in Europe played a part in strengthening the Faith of those around by way of lifting their minds toward heaven? (paraphrasing)
If the catacombs come, it should be because God wills it. Those who were forced into catacombs, were just that: forced into them. They were not artificially constructed in the sense that they made their way to the catacombs only because they were unable to practice the Faith publicly. I don't think that this is the case today. Might that change tomorrow? I believe it will , yes. But I don't think we're there yet, and don't foresee any benefit to placing ourselves there intentionally.
One man's opinion against another's I suppose.
-
But I don't think we're there yet, and don't foresee any benefit to placing ourselves there intentionally.
I will clarify: We should place ourselves in Catacombs 'in our hearts'- always. We should always be prepared and in full understanding of the dire situation we're in by reading holy books, especially by Archbishop Lefebvre, encyclicals of the popes (and comparing them with the teachings of VII), hearing talks Bishop Williamson, etc.,
To place yourself in a 'catacomb' spiritually has always been necessary for a Catholic- it means being hot instead of lukewarm. It is a battle that is timeless, and relevant to all Christians.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.
16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
-
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
Is this really the reason we're in the mess we're in today? I thought it was GREC, Bishop Fellay & his cohorts, and Roman influence. I can see a case being made that says that there would be more resistance support if we were in 'catacombs', but I don't think that's true.
If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.
And even if some people came to Tradition by way of comfort, is it not better to be barely saved than not be saved at all? Don't take me the wrong way when I ask: Who cares what the "quality" of parishioner is- as long as we help others save their soul, isn't that most important? Did not you yourself say that the purpose of the cathedrals in Europe played a part in strengthening the Faith of those around by way of lifting their minds toward heaven? (paraphrasing)
If the catacombs come, it should be because God wills it. Those who were forced into catacombs, were just that: forced into them. They were not artificially constructed in the sense that they made their way to the catacombs only because they were unable to practice the Faith publicly. I don't think that this is the case today. Might that change tomorrow? I believe it will , yes. But I don't think we're there yet, and don't foresee any benefit to placing ourselves there intentionally.
One man's opinion against another's I suppose.
Regarding the cathedrals of Europe -- a lot has changed in Europe since those
great churches were built. You know it wasn't uncommon for a project to be
undertaken that would take generations to finish. By the time they were
getting close to finishing Cologne Cathedral, for example, a workman could
say that his father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather
had all worked on the same cathedral as it was built, all doing the same trade.
When workmen had to climb the stone spiral stairways into the bell towers, the
climb got to be such a workout that they sometimes set up sleeping quarters
there so they could stay overnight and not waste their energy climbing stairs!
This brings a new meaning to the word "Holy Mother Church!"
I visited Cologne Cathedral in 1985, and sang with the choir in the choir loft
above the altar, where we could look down at the large reliquary that looked
more like a small house. It contains the relics of Melchior, Belthazar and
Caspar, the three kings, the same three kings whose factual existence is
questioned by certain moderns, even while their physical bones are right
there. You shouldn't be able to doubt bones and ashes. Maybe that's why
we have incorruptibles. They're harder to deny. They still look like the
person, like he's asleep, asleep in the Lord.
And that brings me to another point. When I went outside and walked all
around the building, because I wanted to know what it looks like from every
angle, I encountered a large group of ingrates, young Germans with a sour
demeanor. They appeared to be German imitations of our own Hell's Angels,
a motorcycle gang in California. So this was "just like home" to me, and I
figured I didn't have to ignore their existence, and I took the opportunity to
talk to one of them. I said that I would like them to know that I wish I had
more time to be there in the presence of this great monument to the faith of
their own ancestors. The beatnik I spoke to turned to face the dark basalt
stone walls and spat at them. He told me, "That's what I think of that pile of
trash. It is an eyesore and it should be made into an empty lot! We would
be better off if it did not exist. It makes me sick."
So what do you do with an attitude like that? I told him, that I'm sorry he
feels that way, and I left him in his misery. What was his purpose in being
there? I wasn't about to ask him because he didn't seem to be well in the
head, but his buddies seemed to be of the same mind, as he acted as their
spokesman. Talking to others at random, it turns out that group of ne'er-do-
wells is not uncommon near cathedrals in Europe, especially the great ones,
and they are a risk for vandalism, due to their sour and contemptuous
attitude.
So things are not well in Europe. That was 27 years ago, and now it's worse.
Now, they are closing down large churches because no one comes there to
Mass anymore. I hope that's not the case in Cologne. It is truly a
magnificent place. From the choir loft inside, you look down about 100 feet
to the floor, but even so, the columns and ceiling rise much further overhead.
the enormous size is dizzying to behold. Our voices echoed all around inside
and came back to us in fading layers of texture that cannot be imitated with
technology. It was a living sound, that results from interaction of all the
myriad of angles in the walls, floor and ceiling.
But none of that is of any importance to the hate criminals who meanwhile
lurk on the other side of the wall, as they plot its destruction.
-
I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".
I visited Cologne Cathedral in 1985, and sang with the choir in the choir loft
above the altar, where we could look down at the large reliquary that looked
more like a small house. It contains the relics of Melchior, Belthazar and
Caspar, the three kings, the same three kings whose factual existence is
questioned by certain moderns, even while their physical bones are right
there. You shouldn't be able to doubt bones and ashes. Maybe that's why
we have incorruptibles. They're harder to deny. They still look like the
person, like he's asleep, asleep in the Lord. [/quote]
Neil- I also have been to the great Cologne Cathedral, a few years ago when I was still in the Air Force. Its magnificence is hard to describe, and truly no picture does it any justice. I remember reading that it took some 700 years to fully complete- amazing to think about, isn't it?? I also saw the tombs of the three kings; but weren't there bodies of others (saints?) in there as well?
-
I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. [/b] Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.
You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble; this in no way takes away from a person or people's humility. ...
You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
Total Strawman.
Matthew and I are pretty much saying the same thing (except that Matthew is talking about building two $10,000 chapels instead of one $20,000. While i was talking about building 20 small chapels versus one giant chapel), and yet I don't see you writing the same disrespectful way to him that you did to me. Is that because he owns Cathinfo?
You detracted three times against my character based on a strawman of your creation, in other words, you created a strawman that you made out to be me, then you detracted twice against that "strawman Bowler", that you invented.
What have you got to say for yourself?
-
Actually you made four ad-hominen detractions against my character based on your own strawman image you created of me
I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.
You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble...
You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
Take note: Criticizing the SSPX for the sake of criticizing (which I find you and others doing more often than not) is in no way supportive of the resistance; actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop.
Detractions
1) "You're starting to sound like a Protestant"
2) "This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant)".
3) "actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop". (hence you are calling me a foolish embecile)
and from your posting:
But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.
Its not for us to decide, but for us to allow the Holy Ghost to inspire in whatever way He sees fit (and than to pray that those entering our Church are open to his inspiration). The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.
4) "The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not." (hence I am a nitpicker, who does not think about the things he says, and thinks that I am holier than thou.)
Not very Catholic, to say the least. What have you got to say for yourself young man?
-
Actually you made four ad-hominen detractions against my character based on your own strawman image you created of me
I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.
You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble...
You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
Take note: Criticizing the SSPX for the sake of criticizing (which I find you and others doing more often than not) is in no way supportive of the resistance; actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop.
Detraction
1) You're starting to sound like a Protestant
2) This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
3) actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop (hence you are calling me a foolish embecile)
anf from your posting:
But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.
Its not for us to decide, but for us to allow the Holy Ghost to inspire in whatever way He sees fit (and than to pray that those entering our Church are open to his inspiration). The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.
4) The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not. (hence I am a nitpicker, who does not think about the things he says, and thinks that I am holier than thou.)
What have you got to say for yourself young man?
See my response to this thread (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=23925&min=35&num=5), sir.
This is really embarrassing you posting this all over. Take a walk, if you can. If you want me to leave for a few hours, I will. I don't want to incite anger in anyone.
-
I posted it in the other thread by mistake when I was copying and pasting to put it in this thread. Therefore, I am bringing your response here where I inteneded to have mine.
Matthew and I are tlaking the same thing, and yet I don't see you writing the same way to him that you did to me. Is that because he owns Cathinfo?
If you knew anything about my history with Matthew, you'd know I have no problem disagreeing with him, and letting him know; I've even been known, I'm ashamed to admit, to be uncharitable with my typing 'tone'. His owning of the forum has no bearing on my opinions.
You detracted twice against my character based on a strawman, in other words you created a strawman that you made out to be me, then you detracted against that strawman me invented false me twice.
What do you have to say for yourself?
Are you always so dramatic about things bowler? For such a rough and tough sounding fellow, you sure seem to get your feelings hurt easily. Reminds me of another emoting man who posts here frequently; you two must share the same temperament... Anyways, if you can't handle it, press the "Hide" button on one of my posts.
I would normally take more time to point out to you your error in this post; but I think you can see the downvotes / upvotes on the OP as evidence that most here disagree with you. I will leave you with this, but I feel it will have no effect in helping you because you are too feminine in your thinking and may be of bad will: contrary to what you may believe in your warped illogical mind, your post in this thread was not the same as what was in Matthews thread ('catacombs').
-
Neil- I also have been to the great Cologne Cathedral, a few years ago when I was still in the Air Force. Its magnificence is hard to describe, and truly no picture does it any justice. I remember reading that it took some 700 years to fully complete- amazing to think about, isn't it?? I also saw the tombs of the three kings; but weren't there bodies of others (saints?) in there as well?
Yes, there is St. Gregory of Spoleto, Sts. Nabor and Felix as well as possible one of the Holy Innocents according to the testimony of the last opening in 1864.
If you are ever in Cologne, make sure not only to visit Cologne Cathedral. There are many wonderful Churches in Cologne, especially the twelve Romanesque ones.
Next to the Cathedral, there is the Dominican Church of St. Andrew's where St. Albert the Great rests, in the same Church you find the shrine of the holy Maccabees as well as an arm-reliquary of St. Andrew.
Of course there is the also the Church and reliquaries of St. Ursula, the Church and shrine of St. Severin and much more.
-
Okay. It was a little confusing because your post, "posted in wrong place" was vague and came before your last post on the other thread.
-
I posted it in the other thread by mistake when I was copying and pasting to put it in this thread. Therefore, I am bringing your response here where I inteneded to have mine.
Are you always so dramatic about things bowler? For such a rough and tough sounding fellow, you sure seem to get your feelings hurt easily. Reminds me of another emoting man who posts here frequently; you two must share the same temperament... Anyways, if you can't handle it, press the "Hide" button on one of my posts.
I would normally take more time to point out to you your error in this post; but I think you can see the downvotes / upvotes on the OP as evidence that most here disagree with you. I will leave you with this, but I feel it will have no effect in helping you because you are too feminine in your thinking and may be of bad will: contrary to what you may believe in your warped illogical mind, your post in this thread was not the same as what was in Matthews thread ('catacombs').
Your response is just more strawmen and detractions, actually every word is a strawman and detraction. I don't really remember anyones names and the discussions/debates which we had before, however, I sensed in your posting that I had hurt your pride with something i said in the past, and so you were inventing a strawman to come after me. Your posting was so obvious, and continued even after I FULLY clarified the "humble" misconception you had. Now I gave you a chance to see everything in one place, the error of your ways, your detractions based on a false strawman, and what is your reponse? Even more detractions!
Well, I see now in your detractions what your problem with me is, I must have called something you said "effemenite". This is why you now call me "you are too feminine in your thinking".
Ok, I see now what your beef is. I'm sorry that I said in the past that your mindset on a matter was effeminate, or whatever way I attributed effeminancy to something you said.
-
Your response is just more strawmen and detractions, actually every word is a strawman and detraction. I don't really remember anyones names and the discussions/debates which we had before, however, I sensed in your posting that I had hurt your pride with something i said in the past, and so you were inventing a strawman to come after me. Your posting was so obvious, and continued even after I FULLY clarified the "humble" misconception you had. Now I gave you a chance to see everything in one place, the error of your ways, your detractions based on a false strawman, and what is your reponse? Even more detractions!
Well, I see now in your detractions what your problem with me is, I must have called something you said "effemenite". This is why you now call me "you are too feminine in your thinking".
Ok, I see now what you beef is.
Okay bowler. Whatever makes you feel better, sir. Have a good day.
-
Again, there were some objections to my use of the word "humble" in my description of a small chapel, which prompted me to post the quote below. I am posting it here to make it clear that by humble we only meant a small church, it does not mean AT ALL that the little chapel has to be spartan, only that it is small, hence I said 20 chapels spread all over the world instead of one big church in one place.
Fellow Catholics, we are in the middle of a war surrounded on all sides by the enemy (the devil and his knowing or unknowing accomplices), this is no time to be building monuments, it is a time to focus all of our energies to fight tirelessly for survival of our faith. I believe the Neo-SSPX and Ecclesia Dei Indult mass mindset of solving the crisis by building a "Mass center" as their oasis "Church" (yes, with a capital C) that has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish (churches that can compete with any Novus Ordo parish, and the vestments, vessels, equipment, pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations etc., second to none) is not the solution to the problem. In fact, it is just another problem, for it is just an unknowingly selfish way of dealing with the problem. The only important objective during this time of war is the preservation of the faith!
Hi Bowler, you asked for comments, so here is mine:
From the bottom of my heart I believe there cannot be enough beauty to honor Our Lord and His Blessed Mother.
If the very best one can possibly do is humble and poor, may God bless the honst effort. But whenever there is an opportunity or the talent to create something beautiful for the glory of God, it should be done.
Our Catholic tradition is full of stories about saints and holy people finding beautiful sacred objects, hiding statures during wars and persecutions, miraculous images happening and so forth.
One reason some of us are *nervous* about Pope Francis is his Humble thing. Plain and non-descript is masonic, Jєωιѕн and Protestant.
What is better for the faithful, to build?:
One St. Isidore like this:
(http://www.saintisidore.org/pics/Outside%20St%20Isidore_3.jpg)
or 20 small chapels like this spread over the World?:
(http://www.pbpindiantribe.com/sub/snow/olschurch002.jpg)
(please pardon my poor grammar in earlier post)
I have to admit you've got a point, Bowler. BUT how about painting faux marble and gorgeous interiors? Instead of plain old wood? If there are artists available?
And making lovely gardens with free or easily propagated plants and flowers?
I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.
-
Talking in big letters doesn't help. Its actually very annoying and discourages reading. Please- try to write normally.
PS- people who are interested have already seen your post; no need to continually repost it more than 4-5 times.
-
Talking in big letters doesn't help. Its actually very annoying and discourages reading. Please- try to write normally.
Speak for yourself young man!
(http://www.travel-images.com/pht/moroc178.jpg)
-
Yessir!
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRp3ebu3SmYqIieTF869bCaucE-3J6fVB284wf78ynqj0gmW7Cg)
-
Henry Winkler practices Scientology.
-
For any of you that wants a list of things for a home chapel, I have updated this list and cleaned it up. The items needed are different than a priest's mass kit on some ways.
Differences are below :
1- the altar crucifix in a mass kit is small 8- 10 Inches The crucifix purchased for a home alter is 12" and larger
2- altar should be measured for linens and a custom altar frontal ( I make altar frontals). custom linens can be purchased at church supply companies that will make them for your altar .
3- Priests may have their own pxyes. They are designed to carry under clothing with a cord around the neck. Pyx is needed for home sick calls
4- Sick call stole may be added to kit. They are about 20.00
Here is a new updated file: Hope this is helpful to someone.
-
Providence is mighty, Emerentiana.
We were JUST designing a home chapel, and searching everywhere for a list such as yours.
Thank you for taking the time to note each item. God bless you.
-
I just bought a stand for the Missal. It is made for cookbooks, but I thought it might work. It is similar to this one, only black:
(http://m.cargohomeshop.com/filedepository/cargoproductimages/77001-78000/thumbnails/77934%20cream%20cast%20iron%20cook%20book%20stand_726_726_090123013938.jpg)
Do you think this is okay, or should I return it and look for something else? It was only $15 at Target.
-
I just bought a stand for the Missal. It is made for cookbooks, but I thought it might work. It is similar to this one, only black:
(http://m.cargohomeshop.com/filedepository/cargoproductimages/77001-78000/thumbnails/77934%20cream%20cast%20iron%20cook%20book%20stand_726_726_090123013938.jpg)
Do you think this is okay, or should I return it and look for something else? It was only $15 at Target.
Should work, Mansion
-
I put the list up, and already have more to add.
Please consider going to EBay and typing vestment under search.
You can get used linen albs and surplices there. Also, consider a cotta (child or adult size.
Thats Evangelica. PM me if you need advice.
-
Trying to bump this thread so if any of you missed my list, you might want to download and print it. Add the surplices and the alb. Get a shorter one, in case the priest you have may be short.
-
For any of you that want the magic link on e bay that has so many religious items, here it is
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Other-/1447/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=&_pgn=4&_skc=150&rt=nc
Hope this comes thru. There are thousands of rare Catholic items, you can get NOWHERE ELSE !
-
Here is something that would be very important for a home chapel (this was found on the e bay site above)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PADDED-PRAYER-KNEELER-WALNUT-STAIN-HANDCRAFTED-SOLID-MAPLE-PRIE-DIEU-CHURCH-/200894828870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec643d146#ht_2495wt_1043
Here is a link to a missal stand:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Carved-Rosewood-Bible-Book-Stand-with-Leaf-Design-/161002142055?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257c79b967#ht_48wt_1043
Here is a listing for altar cards:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CATHOLIC-VINTAGE-FRAMED-LATIN-ALTAR-CARDS-/130884152759?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e794dadb7#ht_176wt_1043
ablution bowl:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vntg-Catholic-Church-Altar-Ablution-Cup-Ornate-Cross-Top-Altar-Vessel-/300886021185?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460e345441#ht_417wt_806
You can fina a wide assortment of new, reasonably priced items at Curchsupplywarehouse.com.
-
This is a cross-topic notice of 2 substantive follow-ups to a topic that's digressed to become very closely related to this one. The "Catholic Bunker" now seems to be much better suited to both of these topics than their presence in the "SSPX-Rome Agreement" category (the "Resistance Movement" or "Crisis in the Church" categories would also be improvements), but I've just gone with the flow, and kept my follow-ups in the "Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners" topic in the "SSPX-Rome Agreement" category, where 'bowler' originated it. Links have been added below to brief excerpts:
I previously expressed my concerns, in th[e "Fancy Marble"] topic, on an issue of [high] recurring cost (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=23925&min=40&num=5) (Apr 10, 2013, 1:32 am).
Lately, ['nipr', also in the "Fancy Marble" topic] raised the issue of continued availability of the sacraments (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=23925&min=42&num=5).
Both sensibly point to solutions in the same direction as for another important issue--a strategic issue of safety (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=23925&min=44#p0)--not previously addressed: [....] news of highway check-point road-blocks set up by TSA far from our international borders, makes it worth considering whether travel to a traditional Mass in the future [....], might become an ordeal without government authorization.
(Alas, my original follow-up time-stamped as "[Apr 11, 2013], 7:00 pm" is followed immediately by an exact duplicate at "7:02 pm", and server time-limits prevented me from emptying its text as a substitute for deleting it).
-
Here is a perfect altar cloth :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCALLOP-EDGED-ALTAR-FRONTAL-SPECIAL-SCHIFFLI-CROSS-100-LINEN-TABLE-RUNNER-CLOTH-/200901674381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec6ac458d#ht_1687wt_1043
-
Beautiful 13" altar crucifix:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Altar-Cross-for-your-altar-Crucifix-13-7-8-/281071754856?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41712e9e68#ht_3417wt_1043
another nice altar missal stand
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IHS-WOOD-CARVED-BIBLE-MISSAL-STAND-WOODEN-CHURCH-LATIN-CHRISTIAN-CATHOLIC-/110995241280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d7d4f940#ht_1546wt_1043
-
Emerentiana: PLEASE STOP!
You are spamming a thread that's located in the "SSPX-Rome Agreement" category, which is completely not related to buying altar furnishings.
There are thousands of rare Catholic items, you can get NOWHERE ELSE !
You've given no reason for why that extreme claim should be believed by any reader. It sure looks self-indulgent. If you just happen to benefit from supplying these items you're advertising, that would make your behavior even more disreputable and worthy of rebuke. Not just here, but on a huge proportion of noncommercial Internet message-boards.
And you're doing it in a way that's really troublesome. In a word: Cluelessly!* In just one posting, you presented 4 obnoxiously-long URLs, measuring 142, 162, 177, 177 (again) characters, which fouls the display of everyone else's posting that ends up on the same page, by whacking it out waaay too wide, thus forcing many visitors to scroll horizontally to read each line!
Yet you're also confusing readers by taking extra effort to underline entire lines that, contrary to Web custom & usage, are not links! A computer is not a typewriter was the title of a widely needed book that was published early in the personal-computer revolution. Here, unlike on a typewriter, we have italics and boldface.
Again, please STOP. Then take a few minutes worth of deep breaths, and contact a helpful expert--via e-mail, PM, or posting in another topic in some other category where such things belong--for assistance in understanding and using the '' and ' (http://...)' mark-up to make short phrases, e.g.:
"missal stand", "altar cards", and "ablution bowl", into Web links without displaying the whole [expletives deleted] long URL in the posting itself.
-------
Note *: This sort of behavior, which makes it unpleasant to try to read carefully thought out postings by my fellow members, exhausts my charitable language really quickly. But she can at least be grateful that I'm not the moderator.
-
Alligater,
Dont these links work on your computer?
Im not being self indulgent, or am I selling anything to make money.
-
I hope that these links will be beneficial to anyone looking for mass items for their home chapel.
-
Ok, Alligator,
I have started a new thread for the chapel items.
Now you can have this thread to yourself to discuss your conspiracy theories LOL. :laugh1: