I don't know Matthew, when I first read your post, there was something meritorious about it, but for me personally, crisis or not, give me the grandest possible setting worthy of the Holy Sacrifice over the cozy catacomb any day.

Could be because I remember the many years of Mass in crowded basements, living rooms etc., using a small laundry room or pantry as the place where the priest put on his vestments and where confessions were heard.

Then there were the banquet halls that often reeked of stale beer and stinky day old cigarette smoke. . . . . . of course, after Mass you could add incense into that mix for whoever rented the place next lol

After only a few years of that, I think most would say they are ready to see Our Lord in a real Church - the more magnificent the better. Even if we wore blinders, driving the 2 hours each way is enough to remind most of us that we're in a crisis.

There's a lot to take in in the OP; I want to make sure that I'm not thinking emotionally, but my first reaction is not in agreement with what's been said so far.

It's tempting to think your "Mass center" is your "church" or your "parish" when it has all the elements of a pre-Vatican II parish. Pews, large statues, engravings, marble altars, all manner of decorations, brand-new chapel equipment, etc.

I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".

Is this really the reason we're in the mess we're in today? I thought it was GREC, Bishop Fellay  & his cohorts, and Roman influence. I can see a case being made that says that there would be more resistance support if we were in 'catacombs', but I don't think thats true.

I'll explain: Surely those of weak faith will always be with us; it is the nature of men and of certain members of the Church- this existed even in the earliest catacomb-filled days, with some members of the Fatih weak, and selling out others, to their death(!). We can see who those weak members are now in seeing the actions of those who support a SSPX-Roman regularization, and in those who fail to speak out against it. But we are "still here", are we not? Certainly the Truth made itself clear to those of us now supporting the resistance.

If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.

And even if some people came to Tradition by way of comfort, is it not better to be barely saved than not be saved at all? Don't take me the wrong way when I ask: Who cares what the "quality" of parishioner is- as long as we help others save their soul, isn't that most important? Did not you yourself say that the purpose of the cathedrals in Europe played a part in strengthening the Faith of those around by way of lifting their minds toward heaven? (paraphrasing)

If the catacombs come, it should be because God wills it. Those who were forced into catacombs, were just that: forced into them. They were not artificially constructed in the sense that they made their way to the catacombs only because they were unable to practice the Faith publicly. I don't think that this is the case today. Might that change tomorrow? I believe it will , yes. But I don't think we're there yet, and don't foresee any benefit to placing ourselves there intentionally.  

One man's opinion against another's I suppose.

Quote from: Matt

I believe that to foster a true, long-term viable Resistance to Vatican II, you need a certain element of "catacombs" or "coziness".

Is this really the reason we're in the mess we're in today? I thought it was GREC, Bishop Fellay  & his cohorts, and Roman influence. I can see a case being made that says that there would be more resistance support if we were in 'catacombs', but I don't think that's true.

Quote from: Matt

If it takes an expensive chapel to convince them to switch -- you're not getting a high quality parishioner. It's as simple as that.

And even if some people came to Tradition by way of comfort, is it not better to be barely saved than not be saved at all? Don't take me the wrong way when I ask: Who cares what the "quality" of parishioner is- as long as we help others save their soul, isn't that most important? Did not you yourself say that the purpose of the cathedrals in Europe played a part in strengthening the Faith of those around by way of lifting their minds toward heaven? (paraphrasing)

If the catacombs come, it should be because God wills it. Those who were forced into catacombs, were just that: forced into them. They were not artificially constructed in the sense that they made their way to the catacombs only because they were unable to practice the Faith publicly. I don't think that this is the case today. Might that change tomorrow? I believe it will , yes. But I don't think we're there yet, and don't foresee any benefit to placing ourselves there intentionally.  

One man's opinion against another's I suppose.

Regarding the cathedrals of Europe -- a lot has changed in Europe since those
great churches were built.  You know it wasn't uncommon for a project to be
undertaken that would take generations to finish.  By the time they were
getting close to finishing Cologne Cathedral, for example, a workman could
say that his father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather
had all worked on the same cathedral as it was built, all doing the same trade.  
When workmen had to climb the stone spiral stairways into the bell towers, the
climb got to be such a workout that they sometimes set up sleeping quarters
there so they could stay overnight and not waste their energy climbing stairs!  
This brings a new meaning to the word "Holy Mother Church!"  

I visited Cologne Cathedral in 1985, and sang with the choir in the choir loft
above the altar, where we could look down at the large reliquary that looked
more like a small house.  It contains the relics of Melchior, Belthazar and
Caspar, the three kings, the same three kings whose factual existence is
questioned by certain moderns, even while their physical bones are right
there.  You shouldn't be able to doubt bones and ashes.  Maybe that's why
we have incorruptibles.  They're harder to deny.  They still look like the
person, like he's asleep, asleep in the Lord.

And that brings me to another point.  When I went outside and walked all
around the building, because I wanted to know what it looks like from every
angle, I encountered a large group of ingrates, young Germans with a sour
demeanor.  They appeared to be German imitations of our own Hell's Angels,
a motorcycle gang in California.  So this was "just like home" to me, and I
figured I didn't have to ignore their existence, and I took the opportunity to
talk to one of them.  I said that I would like them to know that I wish I had
more time to be there in the presence of this great monument to the faith of
their own ancestors.  The beatnik I spoke to turned to face the dark basalt
stone walls and spat at them. He told me, "That's what I think of that pile of
trash.  It is an eyesore and it should be made into an empty lot!  We would
be better off if it did not exist.  It makes me sick."  

So what do you do with an attitude like that?  I told him, that I'm sorry he
feels that way, and I left him in his misery.  What was his purpose in being
there?  I wasn't about to ask him because he didn't seem to be well in the
head, but his buddies seemed to be of the same mind, as he acted as their
spokesman.  Talking to others at random, it turns out that group of ne'er-do-
wells is not uncommon near cathedrals in Europe, especially the great ones,
and they are a risk for vandalism, due to their sour and contemptuous
attitude.  

So things are not well in Europe.  That was 27 years ago, and now it's worse.
Now, they are closing down large churches because no one comes there to
Mass anymore.  I hope that's not the case in Cologne.  It is truly a
magnificent place.  From the choir loft inside, you look down about 100 feet
to the floor, but even so, the columns and ceiling rise much further overhead.
the enormous size is dizzying to behold.  Our voices echoed all around inside
and came back to us in fading layers of texture that cannot be imitated with
technology.  It was a living sound, that results from interaction of all the
myriad of angles in the walls, floor and ceiling.  

But none of that is of any importance to the hate criminals who meanwhile
lurk on the other side of the wall, as they plot its destruction.

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: bowler

I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. [/b] Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.

You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble; this in no way takes away from a person or people's humility. ...
You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
 

Total Strawman.

Matthew and I are pretty much saying the same thing (except that Matthew is talking about building two $10,000 chapels instead of one $20,000. While i was talking about building 20 small chapels versus one giant chapel), and yet I don't see you writing the same disrespectful way to him that you did to me. Is that because he owns Cathinfo?

You detracted three times against my character based on a strawman of your creation, in other words, you created a strawman that you made out to be me, then you detracted twice against that "strawman Bowler", that you invented.

What have you got to say for yourself?

Actually you made four ad-hominen detractions against my character based on your own strawman image you created of me

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: bowler

I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.

You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble...

You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).

Take note: Criticizing the SSPX for the sake of criticizing (which I find you and others doing more often than not) is in no way supportive of the resistance; actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop.

Detraction
1) You're starting to sound like a Protestant
2) This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
3) actually it undermines it as you make us look like foolish imbeciles. You need to stop (hence you are calling me a foolish embecile)

anf from your posting:

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Matto

But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.

Its not for us to decide, but for us to allow the Holy Ghost to inspire in whatever way He sees fit (and than to pray that those entering our Church are open to his inspiration). The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.

4) The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not. (hence I am a nitpicker, who does not think about the things he says, and thinks that I am holier than thou.)

What have you got to say for yourself young man?

See my response to this thread, sir.

This is really embarrassing you posting this all over. Take a walk, if you can. If you want me to leave for a few hours, I will. I don't want to incite anger in anyone.

Neil- I also have been to the great Cologne Cathedral, a few years ago when I was still in the Air Force. Its magnificence is hard to describe, and truly no picture does it any justice. I remember reading that it took some 700 years to fully complete- amazing to think about, isn't it?? I also saw the tombs of the three kings; but weren't there bodies of others (saints?) in there as well?

Yes, there is St. Gregory of Spoleto, Sts. Nabor and Felix as well as possible one of the Holy Innocents according to the testimony of the last opening in 1864.

If you are ever in Cologne, make sure not only to visit Cologne Cathedral. There are many wonderful Churches in Cologne, especially the twelve Romanesque ones.
Next to the Cathedral, there is the Dominican Church of St. Andrew's where St. Albert the Great rests, in the same Church you find the shrine of the holy Maccabees as well as an arm-reliquary of St. Andrew.
Of course there is the also the Church and reliquaries of St. Ursula, the Church and shrine of St. Severin and much more.

I posted it in the other thread by mistake when I was copying and pasting to put it in this thread. Therefore, I am bringing your response here where I inteneded to have mine.

Quote from: s2srea

Are you always so dramatic about things bowler? For such a rough and tough sounding fellow, you sure seem to get your feelings hurt easily. Reminds me of another emoting man who posts here frequently; you two must share the same temperament... Anyways, if you can't handle it, press the "Hide" button on one of my posts.

I would normally take more time to point out to you your error in this post; but I think you can see the downvotes / upvotes on the OP as evidence that most here disagree with you. I will leave you with this, but I feel it will have no effect in helping you because you are too feminine in your thinking and may be of bad will: contrary to what you may believe in your warped illogical mind, your post in this thread was not the same as what was in Matthews thread ('catacombs').

Your response is just more strawmen and detractions, actually every word is a strawman and detraction. I don't really remember anyones names and the discussions/debates which we had before, however, I sensed in your posting that I had hurt your pride with something i said in the past, and so you were inventing a strawman to come after me. Your posting was so obvious, and continued even after I FULLY clarified the "humble" misconception you had. Now I gave you a chance to see everything in one place, the error of your ways, your detractions based on a false strawman, and what is your reponse? Even more detractions!

Well, I see now in your detractions what your problem with me is, I must have called something you said "effemenite". This is why you now call me "you are too feminine in your thinking".

Ok, I see now what your beef is. I'm sorry that I said in the past that your mindset on a matter was effeminate, or whatever way I attributed effeminancy to something you said.