"Our list of allies grows thin."

-Lord Elrond: Lord of the Rings

Since the General Chapter in July:

1) No public statement by Bishop de Galerreta opposing an accord;

2) No public statement by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais opposing an accord;

Since their recent ordinations:

3) No public statement by the Dominicans of Avrille opposing an accord;

4) No public statement by the Capuchins of Morgon opposing the accord;

5) No public statement by the Benedictines of [Bellaigue?] opposing an accord.

Apparently, all have chosen "obedient" silence.

Ancien Regime said:

"The Dominicans of Avrille and the Capuchins of Morgon and the Benedictines of Bellaigue made their stance known to Bishop Fellay when they went to visit him to warn him against making an accord. How much more are they supposed to do when none of them are members of the SSPX? And when "there is no agreement?"

These brothers and fathers are all continuing to do what they have always done. They have not changed."


Commentary:

1)  The stance that was made known to Bishop Fellay, which you observed above, occurred BEFORE their ordinations;

2) Bishop Fellay stated he would not ordain them until their loyalty had been ascertained;

3) Since their ordinations NONE OF THEM HAS MADE A PUBLIC STATEMENT AGAINST THE ORIENTATION IN MENZINGEN.

4) Can you put 1 + 1 together?

5) Their loyalty has been found acceptable in Menzingen, they got their ordinations, and have not opposed Menzingen since.

6) Don't shoot the messenger.

Quote from: Seraphim

"Our list of allies grows thin."

-Lord Elrond: Lord of the Rings

Since the General Chapter in July:

1) No public statement by Bishop de Galerreta opposing an accord;

2) No public statement by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais opposing an accord;

Since their recent ordinations:

3) No public statement by the Dominicans of Avrille opposing an accord;

4) No public statement by the Capuchins of Morgon opposing the accord;

5) No public statement by the Benedictines of [Bellaigue?] opposing an accord.

Apparently, all have chosen "obedient" silence.

How many statements do these groups have to make to reassure you that they still oppose any accords?

Bishop de Galerreta has made it clear that he desires to stay with Bishop Fellay and now agrees with him.

Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, as Bishop Williamson has stated, is keeping quiet for the time being while continuing to preach and teach what he has always preached and taught.

The Dominicans of Avrille and the Capuchins of Morgon and the Benedictines of Bellaigue made their stance known to Bishop Fellay when they went to visit him to warn him against making an accord. How much more are they supposed to do when none of them are members of the SSPX? And when "there is no agreement?"

These brothers and fathers are all continuing to do what they have always done. They have not changed.

Unlike the hierarchy of the SSPX, none of the religious orders work under the assumption that they have jurisdiction over the SSPX. The SSPX is its own institution and, in the end, they must decide for themselves what they will do. Neither the religious orders, nor you, nor I can make the leadership of the SSPX do anything. We can only voice our opinions and state our case--which I am sure these orders are doing in their own way.There is not now, and there has never been any move by any of these three houses towards an agreement with Conciliar Rome.

So I, for one, will assume these houses are continuing to be Traditional Dominicans, Capuchins and Benedictines until I hear something to the contrary from their own lips.

Let me start off saying I hate to say what I'm going to say but I think it is a valid point and it may help others thinking the same way as I am.

We all know the Dominicans of Avrillé, as well as the Capuchins of Morgon, have been persecuted by Menzingen's Regime to the point of having their ordinations postponed due to their "lack of loyalty" towards Neo-SSPX; however, they ended up being ordained by Bishop Fellay --God knows under what conditions.

So when I tried to acquire more recently information on their resistance, I found none. Please don't get me wrong, somebody else might have proof of their resistance to this day but "I" cannot find them. Their last monthly report have nothing, absolutely nothing, in regards to the resistance one way or another. I have to admit this troubles me.

I'm a Dominican myself and this uncertainty regarding their ACTUAL position fills me with sadness, but I can not help thinking there's a huge difference between speaking up before and after the General Council (and their ordinations).

I'll illustrate my point in saying this: Are we to support the three bishops the same way, after all they all have spoken up against the sell-out before the GC; or are we to support the one that still fighting liberalism?

I'm sorry but saying "the brothers and fathers are all continuing to do what they have always done. They have not changed.", won't cut it; and the reason why is because if you ask in your local SSPX Chapel many of them will say the same thing, that they haven't change, that is.

I'll be the happiest person here when I hear the Dominicans of Avrillé voicing their position against the Cult of +Fellay, until then, prudence obliges me to support those whom are "still" speaking out against neo-SSPX.

May Our Patron, Saint Dominic, keep us all on the true Faith!

May Our Patron, Saint Dominic, help their sons of Avrillé make their position clear!

I agree with Lourdes Fatima[/i]. For Christmas, send your money to Dom Tomas of Aquino, in Brazil, or to Fr Chazal and Pfeiffer. Help people who are openly and efficiently fighting. In their last magazine Sel de la Terre, the dominicans published an article of fr Puga saying that we shouldn't go on forums and on the internet and that instead of that, we should read books to know more about theology, to be stronger against the errors.... Their position is not clear. They seem to follow Bp Tissier... I'm not against reading, but criticizing the internet is criticizing our fight, so let's be careful and let's give to our true friends !

To give to Dom Tomas, it is here :
http://www.beneditinos.org.br/

In Domino Speravi said:

"In their last magazine Sel de la Terre, the dominicans published an article of fr Puga saying that we shouldn't go on forums and on the internet and..."


Commentary:

1) This certainly confirms my suspicion that silence and re-education were the price to pay for ordination;
2) It is exactly the same message coming from Menzingen and Fr. Rostand: Propaganda to keep you ignorant.
2) It also confirms that they have willingly removed themselves from the battlefield;
3) Those who are not fighting do not need assistance.
4) Bishop Williamson, Dom Tomas, Fr. Pfeiffer's group, and others who have MAINTAINED their opposition are the ones we should lend financial assistance to.

In their last magazine Sel de la Terre, the dominicans published an article of fr Puga saying that we shouldn't go on forums and on the internet and that instead of that, we should read books to know more about theology, to be stronger against the errors.... Their position is not clear. They seem to follow Bp Tissier... I'm not against reading, but criticizing the internet is criticizing our fight, so let's be careful and let's give to our true friends !

I just read the article and did not get the same sense as IDS did. Fr. Puga is suggesting that we get our understanding of the crises from more sources than just the internet forums and not to just go about hurling invectives based only on what is on said forums.

These are wise words. It is too easy to think that we have gotten everything we need to know from the internet.

I did not see anywhere in the article where Fr. Puga says "we shouldn't go on forums" at all. He is recommending the book The Catechism of the Crisis by Fr. Gaudron, which is an excellent source.

Also, I want to point out that the journal Sel de la Terre is a scholarly journal and not just a mouthpiece for the Dominicans of Avrille. It contains many articles from many sources, old and new, from a variety of authors. Also, it is most likely planned out long in advance of the publication deadline. It is routine for similar journals to be laid out months ahead of time.

For the record, Bishop Fellay did not do the ordinations. Bishop de Galarreta did the ordinations while Bishop Fellay was in South America.

The Dominicans and Capuchins and Benedictines are all trying to avoid a shooting war with the SSPX. They are monks!!  They do not get on the internet themselves, nor do they monitor all that is being said and done. They have long and deep ties with the SSPX and have been deeply disturbed by the actions of Bishop Fellay.

I am a Dominican Tertiary through Avrille. I correspond with them regularly. I have had personal assurances that they are continuing to be what they have always been, which is to say that they still stand for Traditional Catholicism and continue to want nothing to do with any kind of accord with Rome.

But they are not political. They are also not a part of the SSPX and, unlike Bishop Fellay, realize they do not have jurisdiction over the SSPX. They have already personally intervened, when the heads of the houses drove to Menzingen last spring to talk with Bishop Fellay. They were then punished for it. I believe the ordinations in the summer were a peace offering from the SSPX, which is why Bishop de Galarreta did them, rather than the Superior General.

Please do not punish these orders. They still deserve our support. Nothing more has happened with the SSPX to warrant further action. After all, "there is no agreement" -- yet.

I can say that my brothers are monitoring the situation with the SSPX and when and if the time comes, they will stand up.

Quote from: InDominoSperavi

In their last magazine Sel de la Terre, the dominicans published an article of fr Puga saying that we shouldn't go on forums and on the internet and that instead of that, we should read books to know more about theology, to be stronger against the errors.... Their position is not clear. They seem to follow Bp Tissier... I'm not against reading, but criticizing the internet is criticizing our fight, so let's be careful and let's give to our true friends !

I just read the article and did not get the same sense as IDS did. Fr. Puga is suggesting that we get our understanding of the crises from more sources than just the internet forums and not to just go about hurling invectives based only on what is on said forums.

These are wise words. It is too easy to think that we have gotten everything we need to know from the internet.

I did not see anywhere in the article where Fr. Puga says "we shouldn't go on forums" at all. He is recommending the book The Catechism of the Crisis by Fr. Gaudron, which is an excellent source.

Also, I want to point out that the journal Sel de la Terre is a scholarly journal and not just a mouthpiece for the Dominicans of Avrille. It contains many articles from many sources, old and new, from a variety of authors. Also, it is most likely planned out long in advance of the publication deadline. It is routine for similar journals to be laid out months ahead of time.

For the record, Bishop Fellay did not do the ordinations. Bishop de Galarreta did the ordinations while Bishop Fellay was in South America.

The Dominicans and Capuchins and Benedictines are all trying to avoid a shooting war with the SSPX. They are monks!!  They do not get on the internet themselves, nor do they monitor all that is being said and done. They have long and deep ties with the SSPX and have been deeply disturbed by the actions of Bishop Fellay.

I am a Dominican Tertiary through Avrille. I correspond with them regularly. I have had personal assurances that they are continuing to be what they have always been, which is to say that they still stand for Traditional Catholicism and continue to want nothing to do with any kind of accord with Rome.

But they are not political. They are also not a part of the SSPX and, unlike Bishop Fellay, realize they do not have jurisdiction over the SSPX. They have already personally intervened, when the heads of the houses drove to Menzingen last spring to talk with Bishop Fellay. They were then punished for it. I believe the ordinations in the summer were a peace offering from the SSPX, which is why Bishop de Galarreta did them, rather than the Superior General.

Please do not punish these orders. They still deserve our support. Nothing more has happened with the SSPX to warrant further action. After all, "there is no agreement" -- yet.

I can say that my brothers are monitoring the situation with the SSPX and when and if the time comes, they will stand up.

 

I didn't quite get Seraphim's reaction but here is what I think of this:

This terrible situation we find ourselves in is most disturbing and the way we should evaluate those whom we support has been safer when we are certain of their present resistance.

I'm sorry but assertions such as listed bellow won't cut it:

1. They personally told me, I know it.

2. I'm in France.

3. They are Monks.

4. It was Bp. de Galarreta and not Bp. Fellay who has ordained them.


Because it could be argued thus:


1. It has to be public without room to think otherwise.

2. For all I care the public statement could be publish in Zambia.

3. And so are the Benedictines, but we see consistence in them.

4. Six for half dozen, really.


If someone have direct contact with the Dominicans from Avrillé, they should warn them that they might be missing a lot of support due to people's uncertainty in regards to where they presently stand.

We've seen people and religious order just as strong as the Dominicans of Avrillé becoming a prey, so all the caution is necessary when choosing who to support in this terrible crisis.

Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12-13

That's my 2 cents, anyways.