Author Topic: Trad Movements Safety Lies in Division (Read 5701 times)

Last Tradhican · « **on:** April 25, 2016, 02:42:58 PM »

I am convinced by the history of the last 50+ years of the "traditionalist movement" that God in His providence does not deem it wise to have a unified opposition to the conciliar church. The historical proof is that every non-sedevacantes group has eventually been infiltrated and taken over by a few priests and handed over to Rome, the SSPX is the latest, and in the past the Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King, Priestly Society of Saint John Mary Vianney. I believe that God wants us to remain divided till such a time as He sends us a good shepherd, a good pope, that He wills to fix the situation through His visible Church and not by the efforts of individual priests (like the SSPX).

He provides us with valid priests strictly as a refuge from the insanity of the conciliar church, and no more. Any group that thinks they will "save the Church" has let their illusions of grandeur ("In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king".) get to their heads.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2016, 03:00:27 PM »

Having a Crisis in the Church is nothing new -- even in Old Testament times the True Religion experienced crises, during which time the True Believers were crushed by the heathens around them.

How were those crises resolved? Did a go-getter Israelite raise an army and throw off the shackles of the Babylonians? No. They were brought out of bondage/crisis in GOD'S OWN GOOD TIME and with God's own strength.

Remember Gideon? God commanded that most of Gideon's army go home, lest the Israelites should think that it was their own power that delivered them. God wanted there to be NO MISTAKE about Who delivered them.

What makes you think God has changed at all since then? Today, we have the New Testament founded in Christ's blood, the Catholic Church instead of the Old Testament religion of Moses. But God wants to glorify His mother (who didn't exist 3,000 years ago), and He has decided that the way He will end the current Crisis is through her -- through the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart. He has made that the condition.

Remember Naamon the leper. He only had to wash 7 times in the Jordan and his leprosy would be cleansed. That was the small price the prophet asked (in God's name) for the cure. Likewise, God only asks for this token action (consecration of Russia to the IHM by the Pope in union with all the bishops of the world) before He will begin cleansing the world of its iniquity.

Every other path will end in failure. It is the will of God! Deus Vult! God's most holy will be done.

God always wins. But He "can't" contradict himself because that would be an imperfection, not a perfection. So that's how we know God can't require the consecration of Russia to the IHM and then allow someone like Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of (armed revolutionaries? ѕυιcιdє bombers?) to prevail over the Bad Guys who have the world in their grasp. Such human attempts to end the Crisis *have* to fail, if God's plan is to succeed.

And we know that God will succeed. Ergo.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2016, 03:09:20 PM »

Just remember -- for every true Messiah, there are at least a dozen false "messiahs". For every prophet, there are hundreds of false prophets.

Our Lord warned us of this. It's even in Scripture:

Quote from: Acts of the Apostles, chapter 5

[34] But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while. [35] And he said to them: Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do, as touching these men.

[36] For before these days rose up Theodas, affirming himself to be somebody, to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all that believed him were scattered, and brought to nothing. [37] After this man, rose up Judas of Galilee, in the days of the enrolling, and drew away the people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as consented to him, were dispersed. [38] And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought; [39] But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.

Apparently at the time of Our Lord, the expectation for the Messiah was at a climactic, fever pitch and several false prophets arose who capitalized on this (being in the right place at the right time, as it were).

For every true solution (2+2=4) there are millions of wrong solutions (2+2=1, 2+2=3, 2+2=5, etc.)

We have to have the virtue of Prudence, given us by the Holy Ghost, to discern the voice of the Shepherd from the voice of the hireling or the voice of false shepherds.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2016, 03:17:29 PM »

Quote

allow someone like Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of (armed revolutionaries? ѕυιcιdє bombers?) to prevail over the Bad Guys who have the world in their grasp.

Who's this "Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of armed revolutionaries, and ѕυιcιdє bombers"?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2016, 04:34:41 PM »

I agree that in our times, like in times past, God does not want pride to get in the way of Truth and His victory. But, to say that God WILLED the infiltration of those trad groups is like saying He wills sin. Did He allow those groups to be infiltrated? Obviously. But that doesn't mean He wanted it this way. It doesn't mean that He couldn't use these groups to lessen the chastisement. If the leaders were humble enough to 'get along', God could have used them. Their pride led to fighting, divisions and/or compromise with new-rome. This is not the work of God.

His and Our Lady's messages to Sr Lucy (and any other revelation in the history of the Church where atonement/penance was asked for) reveals that God always wishes for a conversion before He must punish. Our Lord was angry in the 1930s (!!) that the consecration had not been done.

So, while we can point to history as proof that God will ultimately claim the victory for any defeat of evil, it is NOT true that God willed that evil become so powerful that His 1) He uses evil as a chastisement and 2) His intervention is required.

"My thoughts are of peace and not of affliction." God would prefer that we convert, amend and then He could bless us with peace. History shows times of conversion before distaster (Jonah and Ninevah, to name one) but mostly our pride does not allow it, so He lets us face the consequences of evil, until at such point He swoops in and saves us from ourselves (after we've gotten the message and our pride is rebuked).

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2016, 04:39:18 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

But, to say that God WILLED the infiltration of those trad groups is like saying He wills sin.

You suggest that I said that, which I most certainly did not!

And F in reading comprehension for you, son. I'm going to assign you some extra homework! hahaha

All I said was that God willed that this Crisis would only be solved after Our Lady of Fatima's request is heeded. If the topic had come up, or if you had asked me how did the Crisis start in the first place, I would have said that God allowed it to happen.

Only God is able to draw good out of evil. God knows all, sees all, and makes the greatest human geniuses look worse than drooling morons by comparison.
God's ways are inscrutable and unsearchable. As Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?"

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2016, 04:42:30 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
allow someone like Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of (armed revolutionaries? ѕυιcιdє bombers?) to prevail over the Bad Guys who have the world in their grasp.

Who's this "Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of armed revolutionaries, and ѕυιcιdє bombers"?

Franciscan Solitary is a CathInfo member. Read his most recent post(s) to see what I'm talking about.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2016, 04:49:13 PM »

Matthew, wasn't responding to you. Last Tradhican said:

Quote

I believe that God wants us to remain divided...

Incredulous · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2016, 05:15:38 PM »

It's been sneaky, commie infiltration techniques in the churches and parishes for the past 50 years.

Triumph of Judas Maccabeus

Just wait until we have hand-to-hand combat in the chapels.

And there's plenty of US "refugees" waiting to start it.

JPaul · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2016, 09:26:26 PM »

Quote

"Trad Movements Safety Lies in Division "

An interesting thought, considering that division is what enabled the conciliar entity to invade and occupy the Catholic world. It has been their most effective weapon for preventing any long term and effective counter revolutionary movement from
forming and unifying Catholics against the false church and its unholy religion.

There is no safety in hiding and being picked off and subverted one at a time, as has been the history of the Traditional remnant since the false council.

It has been great for personality cults and disastrous for Catholics.

PG · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2016, 11:09:19 PM »

last tradican - I disagree. Rival wolf packs fight with each other. But, you don't see that with sheep. And, the combats in tradition draw blood. The only reason we should not have some big traditional oasis lorded over by a trad bishop is because the pope is still the pope. You may not understand. But, recall, it is st. paul who resists peter to his face. "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and of them that bring glad tidings of good things." Our bishops must walk in the steps of st paul. St. Paul is their keeper in this crisis. And, this crisis is the churches lot. It always has been. Our lord said there must be scandals.

Servus Pius · « **Reply #11 on:** April 26, 2016, 02:58:21 AM »

Quote from: Incredulous

It's been sneaky, commie infiltration techniques in the churches and parishes for the past 50 years.

Triumph of Judas Maccabeus

Just wait until we have hand-to-hand combat in the chapels.

And there's plenty of US "refugees" waiting to start it.

Hand-to-Hand combat in chapels?!?! Now this I gotta see. I am willing to spend a fortune to see Incredulous do MMA(mixed martial arts in the chapels) :rahrah: :boxer: :rahrah:

Franciscan Solitary · « **Reply #12 on:** April 26, 2016, 05:38:42 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
allow someone like Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of (armed revolutionaries? ѕυιcιdє bombers?) to prevail over the Bad Guys who have the world in their grasp.

Who's this "Franciscan Solitary, leading his army of armed revolutionaries, and ѕυιcιdє bombers"?

The Catholic Remnant won't advance by having an opportune unity between weak feminine leaders who focus far too much on fund-raising. What is needed is militant men and how we get there is not by Keystone Cops antics with useless weaponry but by militant historic Roman Catholic education. We must learn to inflict pain on and accept some pain in our grey matter. We must stop being provincial rednecks and learn to think. That is painful, but it must be done. It is the price of Roman Catholic victory.

When we have militant Catholic men with the courage to use their brains, then we will have strong leaders and the best leader will soon be the only leader. Readers should carefully consult Catholic history if they can not understand this.

Our men must be taught to take the pains to think. Then militant leadership will arise and the expert fund-raisers who now too often pretend to lead us will run for the hills where they belong.

TheRealMcCoy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 26, 2016, 06:33:25 AM »

Quote from: Franciscan Solitary

Our men must be taught to take the pains to think. Then militant leadership will arise and the expert fund-raisers who now too often pretend to lead us will run for the hills where they belong.

It takes a lot of $$$ to feed and equip an army. Besides, a Lord Chancellor is neither a king nor a general. But he advises both.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #14 on:** April 26, 2016, 07:04:30 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

[...]and He has decided that the way He will end the current Crisis is through her -- through the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart. He has made that the condition.

[...] Likewise, God only asks for this token action (consecration of Russia to the IHM by the Pope in union with all the bishops of the world) before He will begin cleansing the world of its iniquity.

Sorry, brah, private revelation doesn't supersede public revelation which ended with St. John of the Apocalypse. Moreover, Catholics are not required to believe in Church-approved private revelations such as Fatima, but we are required to believe in all public Divine revelations. Catholics must assent to Church-approved private revelations (Fatima, La Salette, et al.) as worthy of belief, but they're not required to believe them.

Where in the Apocalypse of St. John does it say the Church will be restored (the eclipse removed - the Crisis ended) after a great Chastisement, followed by a period of peace, only to have a last great apostasy leading up to Christ's return, as told by some saints? Where does this canonical Book say Russia must / will be consecrated to Mary's Immaculate Heart?

I believe the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared in Fatima, but I don't take the message (which, no doubt, has various interpretations and conjecture about what was exactly said) as Dogma regarding what will happen to the Church and the world.

Quote from: Last Trahican

I believe that God wants us to remain divided till such a time as He sends us a good shepherd, a good pope, that He wills to fix the situation...

Maybe the best way to view the (traditional) Catholic community is as a confederacy or loose association of groups who still hold the true Faith and attend, if available to them, a true Catholic Mass, but some minor things keep them from being one cohesive group such as missal preference and other issues.