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Online Ladislaus

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2018, 07:46:23 PM »
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  • I now have to wonder if maybe Bp. Fellay was right when he talked about the risk of schism by staying away from Rome.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:

    Quote
    “To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (July 29, 1976, Reflections on the Suspension a divinis)

    “To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)


    “So we are [to be] excommunicated by Modernists, by people who have been condemned by previous popes. So what can that really do? We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned…” (Press conference, Ecône, June 15 1988 )


    Post-consecration statement (Summer 1988 ), SSPX school Bitsche, Alsace-Lorraine: “the archbishop stated, going even beyond even his 15th June press conference, that those who had excommunicated him had themselves long been excommunicated.” (Summary in the Counter-Reformation Association’s, News and Views, Candlemas 1996)


    "I should be very happy to be excommunicated from this Conciliar Church… It is a Church that I do not recognize. I belong to the Catholic Church.” (Interview July 30 1976, published in Minute, no. 747)


    “We have never wished to belong to this system that calls itself the Conciliar Church. To be excommunicated by a decree of your eminence…would be the irrefutable proof that we do not. We ask for nothing better than to be declared ex communione…excluded from impious communion with infidels.” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 leading SSPX priests, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #61 on: April 25, 2018, 08:53:28 PM »
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  • One has an obligation to attend a valid, licit and moral mass, under pain of hell, regardless of the priest's views (assuming he's a valid priest).  The resistance masses are not the only masses.
    If you're talking about the novus ordo mass, I agree, it's heretical.  Outside of this, you're being extreme.
    The SSPX is very close to being 'red lighted' in my opinion, but not yet.  Sunday masses, by and large, still fulfill one's sunday obligation, even if the sermon is full of propaganda and the church is full of sheeple.  Until the sspx formally becomes indult, and outside of marriage masses where the novus ordo "priests" are involved, I would attend if I had to.  The obligation to honor God through a valid and pleasing Mass outweighs any ancillary questionable orthodoxy.

    You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
    I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.

    Your idea about holding your nose through propaganda, etc. does not ring true for me:

    1. If you have any children, they are going to absorb much more of it than you are.
    2. You will be surrounded by (mostly, with a few exceptions) the worst of sheeple, who will influence you, your spouse, and your children. These are the type who don't have the fortitude to start OR EVEN SUPPORT EXISTING Resistance Mass centers. Remember that there are a few Resistance locations with full chapels, and weekly Sunday Mass. But the nearby SSPX chapels are hardly empty! They are populated by those who are afraid of getting on a priest's bad side, afraid to speak up for their beliefs -- basically ANTI-MARTYRS (i.e., the opposite of a martyr). In short, these are the opposite of the type of people I admire or want to associate with. And I certainly don't want my children to imitate such cowards and sellouts.
    3. Your argument could have been, and in fact WAS, used in the 1970's to justify continued attendance at the Novus Ordo, at least until a Trad option appeared. But the record shows that the Traditional Movement was founded by those who left the Novus Ordo first, and got their Trad Mass much later. The pioneers and heroes of the Trad movement all left the Novus Ordo regardless of having a Trad option immediately available. After all, it's impossible to start building a lifeboat when you're still messing about on the sinking ship.

    It's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. Those who think it's about the Mass end up at the Indult -- they have their Mass, and they're happy. But it's not just the Mass. It's the whole FAITH that was attacked and replaced at Vatican II.

    The SSPX thinks they have us by the unmentionables since they control 90% of the Mass centers in the US. Perhaps they're right -- I know a lot of Catholics sympathetic to the Resistance but who attend Mass at the SSPX because they have no better choice.

    It's a shame more people couldn't stick to principles, and basically not let the SSPX get away with it. But in fact, they seem to be getting away with it, because they dangle Sunday Mass over our collective heads.


    PS. You are also forgetting that if it was legitimate to leave the Novus Ordo/Conciliar Church in the 70's and onward, it's equally legitimate to leave an organization (SSPX) that has unlawful commerce (kind of like "unlawful carnal knowledge") with said group. The SSPX is pushing Novus Ordo priest (or "priest") witnessed marriages, they are toning down resistance to Vatican II, etc. and that is sufficient reason to leave and not look back. I, and my children, don't need to have our defenses disassembled so that the worst heresy ever (Modernism) can spill over the broken rubble of the castle walls and infect our minds and hearts.

    We have a right to keep our Faith intact.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #62 on: April 25, 2018, 09:05:22 PM »
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  • My motivation is to fight the 'dogmatic' sede view, which is growing.  This dogmatic, excessive and self-authoritarian stance is causing division in families, churches and in tradition.  I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.  This has been going on for decades, but it is growing in some areas (and Fr Cekada is a big cause).  This type of stuff is supremely uncharitable and sinful (for its uncharity, for its denial of mass/sacraments, and for its schismatic-like "church rules") and the devil loves it.
    This is where Pax Vobis and I do agree. Dogmatic sedevacantists can be worse than dogmatic sedeplenists, even though the terms can be switched around in his post and hold true for the most part.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #63 on: April 25, 2018, 09:48:06 PM »
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  • Taken from Sodalitium Pianum, for those of the remnant that may be interested...  

    “Universal and Peaceful Acceptance” According to John of St. Thomas
    April 25, 2018

    Cursus Theologicus of John of St. Thomas
    Tome 6.  Questions 1-7 on Faith.  Disputation 8.
    ~ Article 2 ~
    When a pope has been legitimately elected, is it de fide, either per se primo or per se secundo, that this particular person—for instance, Innocent X—is the pope?

    Read here...
    sodalitium-pianum.com/universal-and-peaceful-acceptance-by-john-of-st-thomas


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #64 on: April 26, 2018, 12:46:39 AM »
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  • Quote
    You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
    I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.
    Matthew,
    What i'm setting up as an 'either-or' is the current choice of a hypothetical catholic.  Either sspx or "stay at home" (i.e. no sunday mass).  Based on current knowledge, I would say that one must attend the sspx vs stay at home.  The sspx has not yet reached the threshold of heresy which would inform us that we must treat them as deniers of the Faith.  When I say "red light" I mean:  you can't go to the sspx, under any circumstances, no ifs, ands or buts.  I have this stance in relation to the novus ordo and indult.  I do not believe the sspx is 'red lighted' yet.

    Currently, I do not think the sspx has this such extreme label.  It may be different, depending on where you live and on how liberal the sspx priest is, but at this point, the organization has not aligned themselves with rome and the novus ordo, so I say that their priests are valid, their masses are valid (and licit and moral) so they fulfill one's sunday obligation.

    This is a generality.  I am in no way an oracle on all things sspx, nor on all things which are happening in all their chapels.  Please don't take my stance as someone "in the know" but of one making a generalized statement, based on generalized knowledge which can be known from your site.  I don't know anything more than you.  I'm simply making a philosophical argument that one's sunday obligation to glorify God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and fulfill the 3rd Commandment, MUST be fulfilled, if at all possible, regardless of the political, religious and social storms brewing.  Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass...

    Obviously, if one has a better priest and a better catholic atmosphere in which to attend Mass, they should do so.  But if it comes down to "Go to sspx" or "stay at home and miss mass" I think going to an sspx mass is the only option.  The graces God will bestow on you and your family are COUNTLESS.  The Mass is THE prayer of the Church.  It's merits are PRICELESS.  

    God knows what one may go through to attend His Mass.  He will bless you for your sacrifices, even if you endure persecution to get there, or afterwards...


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #65 on: April 26, 2018, 02:20:07 AM »
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  • Thanks for the lectures about sacrifice.

    But the greatest sacrifice we can make is to do the will of God in all things.

    He shows his will through the moral theology of the Church.

    It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the priest.

    Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics.

    Look it up.


    The SSPX has made 4 deals with Rome. One would be enough to make them part of the conciliar, modernist church.

    It's that simple. If you go to an SSPX Mass you make a public statement to God and others that you agree with that. End of story. And if you go are you receiving communion? Are you in union with them? Are you giving to the collection? Why would you financially support Bishop Fellay? If not why are you going then? The sacraments are not toys to make us feel good. Grace can't be felt.

    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #66 on: April 26, 2018, 06:34:37 AM »
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  • This is where Pax Vobis and I do agree. Dogmatic sedevacantists can be worse than dogmatic sedeplenists, even though the terms can be switched around in his post and hold true for the most part.
    The only difference here is that one gets banned; the other does not.  So much for Samuel's and Sean's assertion that this forum is a "sedevacantist" forum.
    "...this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error in accordance with the Divine Promise of Our Lord...." - Vatican I

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #67 on: April 26, 2018, 07:06:45 AM »
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  • These days you have to judge any chapel on a case by case basis. Personally, I stopped going to a nearby SSPX chapel because of the occasional visit of a dubiously ordained priest. I could call ahead of time each week and find out which priest will be coming, or I could attend an Eastern Liturgy once a month and occasionally visit a CMRI chapel. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #68 on: April 26, 2018, 07:49:28 AM »
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  • Thanks for the lectures about sacrifice.

    But the greatest sacrifice we can make is to do the will of God in all things.

    He shows his will through the moral theology of the Church.

    It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the priest.

    Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics.

    Look it up.


    The SSPX has made 4 deals with Rome. One would be enough to make them part of the conciliar, modernist church.

    It's that simple. If you go to an SSPX Mass you make a public statement to God and others that you agree with that. End of story. And if you go are you receiving communion? Are you in union with them? Are you giving to the collection? Why would you financially support Bishop Fellay? If not why are you going then? The sacraments are not toys to make us feel good. Grace can't be felt.
    Can you please post it because I would like to see what moral theology says about going to the Mass and receiving the sacraments from SSPX.

    The SSPX are not schismatics, nor are they heretics - not at my SSPX chapel, nor have I heard anything schismatic or heretical from the pulpit from any SSPX anywhere - perhaps it has happened but not to my knowledge. We all know that since it's inception, nearly the entire world has believed them to be in schism or excommunicated or whatever, but we know those who believe as such are, and have always been wrong about that, so what specifically are you talking about?

    As you said, it's about the priest.

    Yes, +Fellay et al. are doing the slow boil unto their own destruction, but their priests and sacraments are valid until proven otherwise - and when you are in dire need of a priest, you will never regret receiving the last rites and blessings from an SSPX priest, who often travel great distances to get them to you.


       
     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #69 on: February 08, 2019, 04:12:15 PM »
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  • If a group of 4 men were lost in the deep woods, trying to survive, not having perfect information about their situation (distance to nearest town, location of any other people in the area, etc.)
    there might be disagreement about the best course of action.

    Some might want to head north, some might want to head east, some might want to stay put and wait for a rescue team. Can the person who wants to head West accuse the man who wants to head North of bad will, or wanting to die? There is confusion and lack of full information; they all just want to survive, but they might have different ideas about how to best accomplish that.

    How this applies to the Crisis in the Church should be obvious.

    I actually read one prominent Trad mock the above statement, saying "Equals, there is no truth, so each do what one feels is right, because they are all right."
    YOU BET!  When it comes to the Crisis, there is no truth, at least none that we can brandish and condemn each other with. As I've said a million times, Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother have not yet made their opinions known on the Crisis in any recent apparitions. So we're all left to our own devices here.

    The best we can hope for is a well-researched, prudential LIKELIHOOD, or MOST PROBABLE -- enough to act on. But we can't have the certainty of Faith on this. How would we ever get the certainty of Faith on this? Is the Pope going to rule on which Trad group is favored by God?


    I've seen serious, intelligent, holy Catholics of good will fervently push Sedevacantism, R&R, etc. I've even seen some push Conservative Catholic/Indult position.

    It's not for us to condemn this or that Traditional Catholic as being non-Catholic. Once you accept such behavior, you end up with the Dimond Brothers -- excommunicating everyone they disagree with. You see a similar thing in Pfeifferville.
    So when I talk about "Trad-cumenism" or say that I embrace the same, I'm talking about a rejection of Schism. I refuse to cut off communion with Catholics who are objectively part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

    I will not mistake confusion in the Church or material error with malicious heresy!


    Another said:

    Quote
    Fr. Michael Muller - The Church and Her Enemies:

    "It is impious to say, ' I respect every religion.' This is as much to say: I respect the devil as much as I respect God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."


    This same straight-forward kind of talk applies very well to the ecumenical mindset that permeates even traditional circles. There can only be one true Catholic Faith. There cannot be flavors of belief. There can be different approved rites. But even those different rites all have the same beliefs. There is always a common denominator of the true faith.

    All this trad-ecumenism is a temptest and distraction of Hell. It is the proverbial 'dialoging' of Vatican II. 'All religions have something to offer.'
    False. The Catholic Church is the only true Church. The Catholic Faith is the only true Faith - unadulterated.

    Who's talking about different religions? We're not talking about ACTUAL ECUMENISM here...but TRAD-CUMENISM. Huge difference!
    There is only one True Faith, but within the bounds of that True Faith, which Trad group is preferred by God? Nobody knows. So we respect them all. Not all false religions, just all Trad Catholic groups!
    Moron!


    We all started out a bunch of Catholics drowning in the ocean.
    A group of Catholics who opted to climb into a different TEMPORARY LIFEBOAT than me do not deserve to be treated as condemned heretics, excommunicated vitandi (to-be-avoided) ex-Catholics.
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #70 on: February 08, 2019, 06:42:55 PM »
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  • One of the biggest problems is that people reach conclusions without sufficiently understanding the actual theology because it can not be studied without a guide and even for those who have studied it, it doesn't exist in a vacuum it is a living thing that is fasted and prayed over so that it becomes part of your life.

    The quick condemnations of things that the church itself has not given dogmatic definition to is supposed to be open to debate until the church itself orders silence. We are not the church and we should be very grateful to Matthew for allowing debate
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #71 on: February 08, 2019, 09:43:38 PM »
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  • Some ex-Pfeiffer people went FSSP.
    Some people received curses, some people went crazy, many dogs & chickens died... :facepalm:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline JmJ2cents

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #72 on: February 09, 2019, 10:38:05 PM »
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  • It is what it is and those of us who agree with Samuel just have to put up with it.  Mathew is in charge here and he is the one who has to answer for it, not us.  

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #73 on: February 13, 2019, 11:49:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: HisMajesty
    It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the Priest. 
    Quote
    Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics. Look it up.

    As Stubborn said, the SSPX are not schismatics, so this doesn't apply in the least. The Faithful who attend SSPX Masses are Baptized and Confirmed Catholics. The Bishops and Priests of the SSPX are Consecrated Shepherds and Ordained Clerics of the Catholic Church who all profess the Catholic Faith. That is all. There is no grounds for claiming them as non-Catholics.

    They now have regular faculties and ordinary jurisdiction from Rome. Does canonical approval from Rome make one "schismatic"? 

    If so, then the SSPX was "schismatic" once before when it was setup by the Bishop of Fribourg in Switzerland, which is obviously absurd. The right way to see it is canonical normalization from Rome is good and to be sought if possible. But if it is denied unjustly, then we just carry on as is. That's how Archbishop Lefebvre saw it. We could make the argument St. Athanasius did the same in Arian times during the weakness of Pope Liberius, but he never declared there was no Pope, much less that there was no jurisdictional hierarchy, or that everyone should break from Rome, or anything else like that. And that's how the SSPX still sees it. We don't have to be Donatists and we don't have to worry what others in the wider Church do, except by trying to convert them when we can. We need to carry on Tradition as is, and if Rome wants to grant us normal faculties, there's no reason to say no. And that doesn't make the SSPX schismatic at all. 
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life, St. Francis)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #74 on: February 14, 2019, 08:04:08 AM »
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  • I'm simply making a philosophical argument that one's sunday obligation to glorify God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and fulfill the 3rd Commandment, MUST be fulfilled, if at all possible, regardless of the political, religious and social storms brewing.  Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass...

    Obviously, if one has a better priest and a better catholic atmosphere in which to attend Mass, they should do so.  But if it comes down to "Go to sspx" or "stay at home and miss mass" I think going to an sspx mass is the only option.  The graces God will bestow on you...

    God knows what one may go through to attend His Mass.  He will bless you for your sacrifices, even if you endure persecution to get there, or afterwards...

    First of all, the Third Commandment is to "keep holy the Lord's Day", not to attend Sunday Mass. There is a difference. The commandment to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is actually a Commandment of the Church. But this only applies to normal times, which we are NOT in.

    Second of all, "Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass..."? Seriously? Are you really resorting to a straw man argument? I want to say something snarky like, "But my priest has horrible B.O. I'm going to stay home from Mass with my family." Is that why you think some Resistance supporters have left the SSPX? Personality conflicts and mere personal dislike? The priest just rubs us the wrong way? Come on, you know better than that!

    Lastly, your argument would 100% apply to attendance at the Novus Ordo and Indult as well. "The Mass has infinite graces, it's the Sacrifice of Our Lord Himself, He will reward us for attendance, even if we have to suffer and "hold our nose" during various parts like the sentimental music, the Handshake of Peace, altar girls...
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