Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 08:23:19 AM

Title: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 08:23:19 AM
Yesterday, Samuel got upset with the presence of non-Resistance supporters (sedevacantists in particular) on CathInfo. He contacted me by e-mail as well as posted on the forum about this.

Here is a slightly edited version of my response:


Quote
My disagreement with you is your definition of "evil".
 
 We're talking about the Crisis in the Church. Sure, I prefer the Resistance position above all others, but many other positions exist as well, as you know all too well. What are we to think of THE CATHOLICS holding all those other positions? That they are not Catholic? God forbid that I should ever be so blind, proud, or rash.
 
 There is massive confusion in the Church ("Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be dispersed") and CathInfo is the place to discuss and work out that confusion.
 
 Also, I would say that CathInfo predates the Resistance by 6 years, and it might outlive it!  CathInfo has been in business for 12 years. How many Traditional "works" live that long? CathInfo's first loyalty is to the TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT (a.k.a. "the Catholic Faith") which must always exist until the end of the world. I can't say that the Resistance is equal to the Catholic Faith itself -- otherwise I make the same mistake as some dogmatic sedevacantists, or "conservative Catholics", that my position is the only one, and everyone else is going to Hell (unless they're invincibly ignorant, of course! I have to laugh every time someone gives that "out" for non-sedevacantist salvation, because people like us can hardly cling to an ignorance defense.)
 
 The problem is that the Resistance is extremely tiny right now. Think about it: anyone with simplistic thinking or strong emotion (emotion stronger than reasoning ability) is already sedevacantist. Almost all of those who are more prudent, educated, circuмspect, practical minded, etc. went with the SSPX (a thin sliver of these educated, prudent, non-hothead types became sedevacantist -- these are the sedevacantists you find on CathInfo, for the most part). But the majority of these SSPX Catholics, because of their prudence, practical considerations, etc. are sticking with the SSPX (place for Mass on Sunday, school for kids, wife can't homeschool, etc.) At least one man with a Resistance-themed blog is still attending SSPX, for crying out loud. And he knows the full deal about the sellout, Resistance, etc. I'll give him credit for at least supporting Masses of the Resistance 100% of the time they're available. (I'm not speaking about myself -- I don't have a blog, I have a FORUM, and I stopped attending the SSPX in May 2015)
 
 The first rule of success in any business is: define your market. Who are you trying to reach? Our market is a thin sliver of serious minded, integral Catholics, who are principled enough to leave the SSPX and assist at Mass only once a month (on average) and homeschool our children, but not proactive, obsessed with theology (and solving all mysteries/problems), or hotheaded enough to embrace sedevacantism.
 
 That, my friends, is a very thin market!
 
 Matthew
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 09:14:34 AM
The topic of "why is the Resistance so small" is a large one, and one short email can't do it justice. So I at least need to write a quick followup (since I don't have time for a book)

Take the group "Catholic" -- the majority are Novus Ordo, some shouldn't even be called Catholic (because they would actually reject the Catholic Faith if someone were to corner them and confront them about Church teaching, and the falseness of Vatican II) and a thin sliver of the whole are loosely traditional.

From that loosely traditional group, you have a bunch who think you need Roman permission to attend a Tridentine Mass -- they depart for the FSSP and other Indult groups.

You are left with Traditional Catholics. How many of them spend much time and energy on "church stuff" outside of getting ready for Mass on Sunday morning, attending Mass, and driving home? I think some Catholics believe that anything more would be "extreme", "overdoing it", being a "holy roller", or "if I'm going to go that far, I should have been a priest". I hate to say it, but only a thin remnant of the Traditional Catholic remnant expend any time or energy in reading, discussing, understanding the position, or really CARING AT ALL about matters of Faith.

You are left with a smaller subset of Integral (7 day a week) Traditional Catholics who not only consider themselves Catholic, but Catholicism would also qualify as a main hobby, insofar as they spend a lot of their free money and/or time on matters related to it (study, discussion, reading, volunteering, etc.) Everyone in this group develops principles (leading to favorite positions, favorite groups) due to their intense INTEREST and CARING about the subject.

But in this group of serious, Integral Trads, you still have large variations in terms of education, intelligence, strength of emotions, personal experience, and accidents of location or chance (I met a great priest with the SSPV...)

Some in this group decide (or "feel") that sedevacantism is the only way.

The rest of the group, getting pretty small by this point, decide with the more cautious, balanced (some would say prudent) Recognize and Resist position.

Now in days of yore, this would be the SSPX. But today, the SSPX is visibly losing it, which necessitates the creation of the Resistance or continuation of the old SSPX position. But how many SSPX attendees have actually left and attached themselves firmly to the Resistance? At my chapel (San Antonio, chapel dating back to 1975, population somewhere between 250 to 300) it's just my family that left -- unless you count 1 additional family that went Pfeifferite. One couple has started coming regularly to the last several (Bp. Zendejas) Masses here, so I'll give them credit at least for supporting the Resistance. There are a few other individuals/families which come to the Resistance chapel "part time", but they all still attend the SSPX.

At least 8 vehicles/famlies have left the San Antonio SSPX chapel to join the Indult, and let me point out this isn't one of those awesome-sermon-giving FSSP priests you may have heard about. No, this is INDULT, said by older priests who aren't very good at it. One of the priests there (no longer there) dabbled in the Charismatic movement as well as the Latin Mass. We're talking about a shared facility, too -- the same building is used for Novus Ordo (with particles -- or Particles -- of Communion in the Hand all over the floor)

When you consider all the obstacles -- the gauntlet -- that a Catholic has to run in order to arrive at the Resistance position, it boggles the mind.

Dimond Brothers
SSPX "obedience", pro-modern Rome, pro-accord propaganda
1962 Missale vs. 1954
Una cuм issue -- to mention the Pope during the Canon or not?
Novus Ordo Watch and other Sede sites
Other dogmatic, schismatic sedevacantists on the Net (Pope Michael, etc.)
Indult groups in every major city "we have to obey the Pope"
Pfeiffer cult

That last item is of particular note: of all those SSPX Catholics who "woke up" to the Crisis in the SSPX, how many of them went with Fr. Pfeiffer? Keep in mind that Fr. Pfeiffer was a Resistance pioneer. The most alert and awake SSPXers would have had no other choice if they wanted to resist the new SSPX orientation back in 2012 or 2013. Now it's true that some or many (most?) of these have since left Fr. Pfeiffer and joined the mainstream, worldwide Resistance under the 4 faithful bishops. But a lot of the principled, especially emotional, ones stuck with Fr. Pfeiffer to the present day. Even those who aren't 100% emotion might be convinced by Fr. Pfeiffer -- cult leaders are often very convincing in person, and that includes Fr. P. Catholics are naturally very hesitant to believe a priest could lie to them. So that also takes a noticeable number away from the main Resistance population.

Long story short, serious minded Catholics are likely to do research, form strong opinions, and many of those opinions are going to conflict and go different directions. It's also hard to give credit to your opponents without implicitly admitting that you might be wrong. If you give credit to Sedevacantists for example, then why? Is it because you want to give credit to those who fail to respect the Pope? Of course not. Or if it's because they are holding the true position, then you would obviously be holding an INCORRECT position, since yours is in conflict with theirs. So when I give any credit/respect to the Sedes, either I'm giving aid to enemies of the Catholic Pope, or I'm admitting I'm wrong. See the problem?

Of course I would offer a TERTIUM DATUR (a third option to solve the dilemma) -- that both sides can be of good will, but the Crisis is so confusing that we can't know for certain who is right. So we respect each other as Catholics even as we disagree with how to deal with (sometimes important) elements of the Crisis.

Matthew
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 09:27:21 AM
If a group of 4 men were lost in the deep woods, trying to survive, not having perfect information about their situation (distance to nearest town, location of any other people in the area, etc.)
there might be disagreement about the best course of action.

Some might want to head north, some might want to head east, some might want to stay put and wait for a rescue team. Can the person who wants to head West accuse the man who wants to head North of bad will, or wanting to die? There is confusion and lack of full information; they all just want to survive, but they might have different ideas about how to best accomplish that.

How this applies to the Crisis in the Church should be obvious.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 22, 2018, 10:06:22 AM
these are very confusing and baffling times to live in indeed. Even just being a Catholic, never mind a good Catholic, these days is near impossible. I long for the days when you could just trust the Clergy and the Church, before all these Vatican 2 shenanigans. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Smedley Butler on April 22, 2018, 11:22:52 AM
Some ex-Pfeiffer people went FSSP.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: JPaul on April 22, 2018, 11:23:08 AM
When one refuses to tolerate points of view that do not agree with the theology of thier particular sect and even go further to characterizing other Catholics as evil for this reason, well what can be said?

We are living in the time when all men have become thier own authority and feel free to interpret the Church's taeching to conform to their own ideas.  R&R was the Archbishop's emergency idea to deal with a crisis which had not yet shown its true nature. It has now been adopted as a permanent way of being for most of the mainstream traditional movement and indult Catholics.  

It is not the Theology of the Church. On this scale and for this long, it is unheard of. Neither is sedevacantism or any other lesser derivitive.  They are all theorys and they have contributed to the fragmenting of the remnants of Catholicism.

For one theory to be right, all others have to be wrong.  There are generally speaking no uncompromised clergy left who have not been affected by modern cultures, theological modernities, or this crisis as a whole. and you do have to be carefull who you follow and what demands that makes on your Faith.

It is hard to see the Faith of Traditional Catholics enduring and holding when things get worse and the Mass and sacraments be come scarce or non-existent. Those who will survive it will be those who do not measure their Faith by the integers of this or that sectarian grouping, but rather those who hold the Faith of the Church explicitly and above and outside of partisan interests.

Eternity is forever, those who fail to grasp the paramount importance of persevering towards that goal will be lost. When giving account of ourselves at the end, we will not be saying, "I am in the resistance, or I was a sedevacantist, but hopefully Lord, I tried to live and die as a follower of Christ. One has nothing to do with the other.

The sectarian church is yet one more adornment of Vatican II. A most effective tool of Lucifer with which to demoralize and separate Catholics.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 11:34:58 AM
Of course, I reject Pyronnism.

However, I believe the Crisis in the Church is a profound mystery that no one (who isn't God's personal counselor) can fully understand, explain, or solve.

I believe all we can do is keep the Faith and save our souls. If we try too hard to explain away the MYSTERY that is the Crisis we will fall into error (sedevacantism, Conciliarism, etc.)

Just like those who tried too hard to explain other mysteries of the Faith (Trinity, Incarnation, dual nature of Christ, etc.) ended up in heresy.

This Crisis has a certain element of mystery; no doubt about it.

Just like the old, "If you can fully wrap your mind around "god", it isn't God that you are comprehending." likewise, if a person says "the Crisis is cut-and-dried, simple, etc." then he simply doesn't understand the full depth and true nature of the Crisis.

Matthew



On 04/22/2018 11:15 AM, Sean Johnson wrote:

Quote
Matthew-

Tell me what you think of this:

http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/books/Iota_Unum/chp_15.htm#s147 (http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/books/Iota_Unum/chp_15.htm#s147)

Semper Idem,
Sean Johnson
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 22, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
I agree, Matthew and JPaul.  Great posts.  The devil surely knows how to divide and conquer.  He preys on our pride, which leads to disunity and then splits.  Certainly many of these theories matter and should be discussed, but they are far LESS important than we make them.  If more people grasped this, we could be united.  Alas, most of this division starts with the Traditional clergy and filters down to the laity!  May God have mercy on the clergy!  

We didn't have these problems in the 70s and early 80s because people were just concerned with "catholic basics".  It's hard to fight about the Faith when you're worried about finding a mass.  Then God blessed us with chapels and schools and some level of 'normalcy' to our Faith.  The crisis was averted and we return to bickering and moaning, just like the Israelites of old.  I guess it's human nature but it's pathetic.  And we wonder why God sends us suffering and crisis?  If he didn't, we'd devolve into tribal warfare and eventually cannibalism...
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 12:00:38 PM
Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):

[He understood the division sedes inevitably and invariably cause...just as they do here on CI, and did not seem to feel the same need to give the sedes a public platform]:

….
STAY IN A FIRM AND SAFE LINE, TO AVOID AN IRREMEDIABLE EVIL

I tell you all this, quite simply, because you can cause yourself problems, as I ask myself, by praying wholeheartedly morning and evening, night and day, so that Tradition may return to the Church. The Pope himself will be the most satisfied, the happiest. We can only live with Our Lord and through Our Lord and with the reign of Our Lord and everywhere! everywhere! In the Liturgy, in the social, political, family fields... We can do nothing without Our Lord Jesus Christ!

You see what I thought I was telling you because we have to stay on a firm line and not get lost. During these difficulties in which we live: one would be tempted, precisely, by extreme solutions and to say "No, no, the Pope is not only liberal, the Pope is heretical! The Pope can probably be more than heretical, so there is no Pope!

That is not correct. It is not because someone is liberal that he is necessarily heretical and therefore necessarily outside the Church. It is necessary to know how to make the necessary distinctions. This is very important to stay on a safe path, to stay well in the Church.

Where else would we go? There is no Pope, there are no Cardinals, because, if the Pope was not Pope when he appointed the Cardinals, these Cardinals can no longer appoint a Pope because they are not Cardinals.... and then...? Is an angel from Heaven going to bring us a Pope? This is absurd!

And not just absurd, dangerous! Because then we may be led to solutions that are really schismatic. Then we'll find the Pope of Palmar de Troya, who is excommunicated, who excommunicated me, who excommunicated the Pope, who excommunicated everyone! or others...: we will go to the church of Toulouse..., to the church of Rouen... what do I know... among the Mormons... among the Pentecostals, among the Adventists or something else... Souls are lost...! Still, I don't want that responsibility!

Perhaps they find me severe in asking these young priests who do not agree with us, with this line that I have always followed, to leave us. But I can't bring the wolf into the sheepfold. It's putting the wolf in the sheepfold, because they divide. It has to be. If, today, I say: "There is a Pope, this Pope, we are not obliged to follow him in everything, even if there may be pastors who are not always good pastors in the complete sense of the word: we are not obliged to follow them in everything. From that to saying there's no Pope, no! So they introduce divisions among the Traditionalists, they introduce divisions in the Church, and from that I do not want, I cannot... while infinitely regretting.

(The audience applauded at length)

(Sedevacantist): "Is it okay to ask a question?"

(Monsignor Lefebvre) : "No, no, no, no"

(Sedevacantist) "Ah that's not normal"

(Monsignor Lefebvre) : "No, no, no, no, no, no"

(Sedevacantist) "It's not normal"

(Monsignor Lefebvre) : "After the conference, after the conference you come to see me, I never accept..."

(Sedevacantist continues to interrupt Archbishop Lefebvre)

(Monsignor Lefebvre) : "I never accept public discussion, I apologize, I never accept public discussion. After the conference, you can come see me."

(Member of the audience continues to interrupt Bishop Lefebvre)

(Monsignor Lefebvre): No, please. Please step outside, sir.

The audience shouts "outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside" (great tumult)

(Monsignor Lefebvre) : You see, you have an example of this division, it is classic.

(The audience applauded at length)

______________________________

Comment: Unlike Archbishop Lefebvre, Matthew has no qualms about "bringing the wolf into the sheepfold."
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 22, 2018, 12:27:50 PM
Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):
If you accept the V2 Popes, then why do you pay any heed to an excommunicated man?
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
If you accept the V2 Popes, then why do you pay any heed to an excommunicated man?
Because his "excommunication" was invalid. +Lefebvre was never even given a trial (and for good reason!)
That's how it works you know. To actually excommunicate a prelate from the Church, they are given an ecclesiastical trial and found guilty.

"Ecclesia Dei Afflicta" was a psy-op contrived to confuse the mass of the Faithful, who are largely ignorant of Canon Law and theology.

Next...

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 12:35:26 PM
By the way, if some Catholics come to CathInfo and are convinced by Sedevacantism etc. that's not my fault.

They are going to do their research. CathInfo has just made itself a large, established site full of content, that's all. If CathInfo didn't exist these sedevacantist converts would have just clicked on another link in Google and ended up just as sedevacantist. They were obviously leaning that direction in the first place.

Certain types are going to be attracted to the simplicity of the sedevacantist solution, as well as the satisfying nature of dismissing the pope completely. Human nature is human nature.

You can't keep Catholics in a bubble. They are grown men and women with free will.

That's like saying it's sinful to run a library, because many errors and sins are found in the books within. Nevertheless, when a person sins after getting an idea from a library book, the sin is solely THEIRS ALONE and the librarian, library owner, etc. does not share in that sin.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 22, 2018, 12:38:40 PM
The same Canon Law that made his ordinations invalid, right?
His suspension was equally invalid. +Lefebvre acted for the greater good of the Church and if you're a Trad you should know that.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: JPaul on April 22, 2018, 01:00:20 PM
An excerpt from 1980 is of limited value today. On the first premise, you must first agree with his views on the matter, and the situation has drastically changed, not in the general but, in those factors by which those distinctions that he talks about, should be made.

And his position has, not by design but its application far beyond its practicle life, has come to cause its own divisions among Traditional Catholics whilst embracing indult and conservative Novus Ordo types.

More confusion and disarray.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 22, 2018, 04:41:25 PM
Quite a few forum members are against what +ABL stood for. Many of them are some version of sede.
Literally no one here has ever condemned +ABL or what he stood for, even if they disagreed with some of his beliefs. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 22, 2018, 05:33:24 PM
1. Yes, that is exactly the Catholic position which you are denying by your "tolerant" attitude: it IS sinful to run a library knowing that the books contain many errors and sins. And in allowing and providing these bad books, you DO become guilty of the errors and sins of others. As Our Lord said, you are either for Him or against Him, and there is no middle way. Ask Pontius Pilate how his "tolerance" worked out for him!

2. Even if you want to put sedevacantism on the "not erroneous and/or sinful" bookshelf, even then you have a problem here. Apart from the "doctrine" of sedevacantism, we also have their "attitude" to deal with. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The above excerpt from the Archbishop illustrates this nicely (thanks Sean).

3. Regarding the accusations of "it's good for business", this does not have to be taken as financial business only. I have no doubt the financial rewards of the worldly advertising on CI are minimal, which makes me wonder why you allow all that nonsense on a Catholic forum in the first place. Anyway, you admitted that CI wants to cater for more than the Resistance. It wants to be more "inclusive". But then you should stop pretending that CathInfo is a Resistance forum, because it is not. By the same standard it is a sede forum, or a feeneyite forum, or a flat earth forum, with the Resistance being tolerated as an optional add-on.

4. I know of several good and strong Resistance faithful who avoid CathInfo like the plague, precisely because of it's "tolerance" policy.

5. It is not just Sean and me who think like this, but also certain Resistance priests (and bishops if I am not mistaken) who have told you this before. So you're up against them as well, and against the Archbishop. The choice is yours, but so is the responsibility for the damage your "tolerance" does.

Quote
Traditional Catholic Forum

A message board for SSPX, Resistance and other Traditional
Catholics to discuss news and matters pertaining to the Catholic Faith.
From the heading of the forum. It is a Traditional Catholic Forum with a focus on the Resistance, in the sense that it is run by R&R members and Matthew routinely bans any non-R&R who behave too dogmatically. By allowing the discussion of different viewpoints on the forum, he offers a means by which err'ing Catholics can be educated and convinced of their errors. While I personally have not become an R&R myself(yet?), I have learned a lot about the Catholic Faith that I hadn't known, and have grown a much greater and more sympathetic understanding of the Resistance. 
If you ban any opposing viewpoints you preclude the opportunity of correcting and saving those people, and also a forum with no disagreement would just be pointless. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 22, 2018, 05:53:35 PM
Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):

[He understood the division sedes inevitably and invariably cause...just as they do here on CI, and did not seem to feel the same need to give the sedes a public platform]:

Nice selective "point in time" snapshot in an attempt to characterize Archbishop Lefebvre.  In point of fact, it's well known that the Archbishop was very optimistic after the election of Karol Wojtyla ... as a change from the hostile Montini regime.

But at the time of Assisi, the Archbishop turned back the other way and speculated publicly that he might have to go sedevacantist as a result of that blasphemy.

It's very well known that the Archbishop went back and forth on this question, from being against it but tolerating it (I do not say he is not the pope but do not say that you cannot say he's not the pope) to being against it (here) to being THIS close to publicly embracing it at the time of Assisi.  At one point he simply said that he was not YET ready to go with it in public ... implying that he was very seriously considering it.

Anyone wishing to get a true picture of how the Archbishop felt about this issue should read the following:
http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

So please don't be selective about facts in order to construct a false narrative in support of your agenda.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 05:58:28 PM
Nice selective "point in time" snapshot in an attempt to characterize Archbishop Lefebvre.  In point of fact, it's well known that the Archbishop was very optimistic after the election of Karol Wojtyla ... as a change from the hostile Montini regime.

But at the time of Assisi, the Archbishop turned back the other way and speculated publicly that he might have to go sedevacantist as a result of that blasphemy.

It's very well known that the Archbishop went back and forth on this question, from being against it but tolerating it (I do not say he is not the pope but do not say that you cannot say he's not the pope) to being against it (here) to being THIS close to publicly embracing it at the time of Assisi.  At one point he simply said that he was not YET ready to go with it in public ... implying that he was very seriously considering it.

Anyone wishing to get a true picture of how the Archbishop felt about this issue should read the following:
http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

So please don't be selective about facts in order to construct a false narrative in support of your agenda.

Pfffft....

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Archbishop Lefebvre opposed sedevacantism both before AND after Assisi, and most importantly, he (unlike you) never considered himself competent to judgee in the matter (i.e., He said the CHURCH might someday judge)...not that disgruntled laymen might take it upon themselves to judge here and now.

That's the part you always conveniently "miss."
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
Samuel was no doubt prompted to write on my account ... since he directly addressed the same sentiments to me.

So is Father Chazal no longer part of "The Resistance"? ... because my position most directly aligns with his.  I am not a pure sedevacantist and have been attacked by dogmatic sedevacantists but I am also not R&R.  The Angelus published an article of mine in 1995 called "Pope-Sifting:  Difficulties with Sedevacantism" ... without my knowledge or prior consent (but that's a long story).  I agree also with Father Ringrose.  Father Ringrose and Father Chazal were two of the original Resistance members.  But in agreeing with these two I am suddenly anti-Resistance?

Are you a solipsist?

If you lie and pretend Fr. Chazal endorses your opinion often enough, someone might believe it?

And if Fr. Chazal shall repeatedly deny it, well, it just proves you are right?

You are delusional.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 06:09:14 PM
Well, since you continue to lie and to distort, you leave me no choice but to cite some of the quotations from that link.

Yes, in one quote, he says the Church might decide this some day.  In either case, that means that he was personally IN DOUBT and considered it a possibility.  And leaving it to the Church to decide formally lines up, again, with Father Chazal.

But, to expose your lie:
Notice that he says that "for 20 years" ... since 1966? ... he and +de Castro Mayer preferred to WAIT.

Archbishop Lefebvre did not have a single monolithic position on the issue that can be represented by your selective citation.  You're simply not an honest person but are driven by your agenda.
I will respond on the thread you are afraid to participate in
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: sedevacantist3 on April 22, 2018, 06:12:49 PM
I asked the sspx priest today if Francis is still pope.  He responded by making a gesture of doubt and said he is not catholic.  To me you have the sede position and you have the position that a non catholic is your pope and head of the Church of Christ 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 08:50:34 PM
Comment: Unlike Archbishop Lefebvre, Matthew has no qualms about "bringing the wolf into the sheepfold."
This comment implies that sedevacantists are not part of the sheepfold.  Sean, are sedes Catholic?
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 09:25:04 PM
2. Even if you want to put sedevacantism on the "not erroneous and/or sinful" bookshelf, even then you have a problem here. Apart from the "doctrine" of sedevacantism, we also have their "attitude" to deal with. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The above excerpt from the Archbishop illustrates this nicely (thanks Sean).

:laugh1:
You mean like the dogmatic sedeplenist, anti-sedevacantist attitude displayed by certain members here?  
   
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Clemens Maria on April 22, 2018, 09:31:03 PM
This comment implies that sedevacantists are not part of the sheepfold.  Sean, are sedes Catholic?
Don’t expect an answer from the Grand Poobah.  You are too lowly for him to waste any time on you.  He is too busy being the top theologian for the resistance.  And since you are obviously a dogmatic sede (we believe that theoretically it is possible that non-dogmatic sedes exist but we have never run across one in the wild), we shan’t waste any of our valuable time trying to convert you to the true religion headed up by our esteemed Pope Francis, whose portrait adorns our chapels and who we are subject to as evidenced by our naming him in the canon of our Masses even if it is true that we systematically reject his authority over us in every imaginable way.  If you even think there might be something wrong with our position, you are not Catholic, unless, of course, you attend a Novus Ordo Mass (which is harmful for you), in which case, you are indubitably Catholic. Capish?
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 10:02:10 PM
Don’t expect an answer from the Grand Poobah.  You are too lowly for him to waste any time on you.  He is too busy being the top theologian for the resistance.  And since you are obviously a dogmatic sede (we believe that theoretically it is possible that non-dogmatic sedes exist but we have never run across one in the wild), we shan’t waste any of our valuable time trying to convert you to the true religion headed up by our esteemed Pope Francis, whose portrait adorns our chapels and who we are subject to as evidenced by our naming him in the canon of our Masses even if it is true that we systematically reject his authority over us in every imaginable way.  If you even think there might be something wrong with our position, you are not Catholic, unless, of course, you attend a Novus Ordo Mass (which is harmful for you), in which case, you are indubitably Catholic. Capish?
Sean will not come out and say that sedes are not Catholic. That would make his dogmatic position clear.  It would also contradict Matthew's position regarding sedes (well, most of them anyway).  Just as dogmatic sedevacantists get the boot here, dogmatic sedeplenists should get the boot here as well.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: JPaul on April 23, 2018, 09:49:23 AM
This is SSPXism in full flower. It is obsessed with sedevacantists, (or "feeneyites) and relatively speaking matter of fact about the heresies which are rampant in the heirarchy and which issue from the papal hotel.  They fail to see their own Liberalism in play.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 23, 2018, 10:19:29 AM
That's why there are about 3 - 4 anti-sedevacantist threads going on in CI at the moment.  ::)

Oh, so you Sedes are only defending yourselves, right? You are "victims" of the terrible R&R supporters, Poor things!

That's why you all continually disparage +ABL. So that you can defend sedeism. What priest of the SSPX, in in considering leaving the SSPX because of the changes, would consider the Resistance after viewing this forum? Very few , I think. You've done your work very well. Along with the other sedes.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 23, 2018, 11:02:27 AM
That's why you all continually disparage +ABL.

Very few sedes disparage +ABL.  We disagree with SOME of the things he's said at times, but every sede I know still has a tremendous amount of respect for him and practically tips his hat at the mention of his name.

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 23, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
Archbishop Lefebvre believed that the Pope was the Pope, and he wrote near the end of his life that he had never ceased repeating that if anyone would separate himself from the Pope, it wouldn't be him. You seem unable to make a distinction between holding for the possibility that in the future, a pope would be declared not a pope by his successor. That's a possibility (among others).

The Archbishop believed that the Pope was the Pope. He also believed that we should not follow him in his Modernist errors. That's recognizing the pope, but resisting his errors.

You can make this all about +ABL's supposed sede beliefs. But he wasn't a sede. Far from it.

Debating with sedes is futile, because you all are NOT honest. 

It's like the Catholic Answers forum. They are tolerant too, of all kinds of ridiculous views that aren't Catholic. I finally gave up trying to reason with modernists and Protestants there. It's the same with sedes here. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 23, 2018, 11:59:12 AM
You continually attack R&R. Are you not aware that +ABL was R&R?

Other sedes here do attack +ABL.

This is an anti-R&R forum. You will now say that no one here is anti-R&R, right? Will you now insist that you have never said anything against R&R? Because that's how the sede mentality works. Lie and deny.
Disagreeing with a viewpoint is not the same as attacking a man who held it, especially one who held it in a very different time.

Of course, you wouldn't know anything about arguing viewpoints. All you do on this site is constantly spew ad hominem attacks, yelling sede this sede that, instead of ever actually defending your own viewpoints or refuting the opposing ones. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: King Wenceslas on April 23, 2018, 01:11:12 PM

Those who hold the position that there have been no popes since 1958 should be permanently banned. Holding the position that there have been no popes since then makes one a non-catholic. Even if this means that traffic here reduces almost to zero. Truth is truth and needs to be defended.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 23, 2018, 02:14:03 PM
It certainly seems that way if you bring up anything about the Red Sea Pedestrians.

At p. 192 in Against the Heresies, we find the Archbishop stating: "The Jєωs are manifestly against Christ."  They are also the elephant in the room even though that room is sometimes the one on CathInfo.

Can you explain more about Red Sea Pedestrians? I've not heard that phrase before. 

Jєωs are of course against Christ, but I think that the Jєωs have also themselves been manipulated by the Luciferian agenda. Lucifer uses whoever he can to bring about the downfall of the One True Church. And it's not only Jєωs, though they have played a big part. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Mr G on April 23, 2018, 02:36:36 PM
Can you explain more about Red Sea Pedestrians? I've not heard that phrase before.

Jєωs are of course against Christ, but I think that the Jєωs have also themselves been manipulated by the Luciferian agenda. Lucifer uses whoever he can to bring about the downfall of the One True Church. And it's not only Jєωs, though they have played a big part.
Look here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-williamson-on-the-red-sea-pedestrians/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-williamson-on-the-red-sea-pedestrians/)
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: kiwiboy on April 23, 2018, 03:13:16 PM
Can you explain more about Red Sea Pedestrians? I've not heard that phrase before.

Jєωs are of course against Christ, but I think that the Jєωs have also themselves been manipulated by the Luciferian agenda. Lucifer uses whoever he can to bring about the downfall of the One True Church. And it's not only Jєωs, though they have played a big part.

Red Sea Pedestrians is a euphemism for Jєωs. I don't like this expression. The Jєωs of the old testament were God's chosen people. Now it is Catholics.

It is Post-Crucifixion Jєωs who are the ones who are evil.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: 2Vermont on April 23, 2018, 03:25:05 PM
Those who hold the position that there have been no popes since 1958 should be permanently banned. Holding the position that there have been no popes since then makes one a non-catholic. Even if this means that traffic here reduces almost to zero. Truth is truth and needs to be defended.
No, dogmatic sedeplenists like yourself should be banned.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 23, 2018, 03:26:31 PM
Can you explain more about Red Sea Pedestrians? I've not heard that phrase before.

Jєωs are of course against Christ, but I think that the Jєωs have also themselves been manipulated by the Luciferian agenda. Lucifer uses whoever he can to bring about the downfall of the One True Church. And it's not only Jєωs, though they have played a big part.
Jesus warned us about modern тαℓмυdic Judaism in the Bible and told us exactly what you suggested, that it would be Satanic: 

Quote
Revelations 3:9

I will make those who are of the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan, who claim to be Jєωs though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Modern "Jєωs" are not the real Jєωs of the Old Testament. That religion is extinct, having been superseded by Christianity. All Jєωs in the time of Christ either converted to Christianity or followed the Pharisees down the path to perdition. It was the Pharisees after all who were behind the тαℓмυd, that blasphemous book that say unspeakable things Our Lord and the Virgin Mary.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 23, 2018, 09:07:47 PM
Think about it: anyone with simplistic thinking or strong emotion (emotion stronger than reasoning ability) is already sedevacantist. Almost all of those who are more prudent, educated, circuмspect, practical minded, etc. went with the SSPX (a thin sliver of these educated, prudent, non-hothead types became sedevacantist -- these are the sedevacantists you find on CathInfo, for the most part).

Matthew, although I appreciate that you feel this way about those of us who post here, how do you know that most sedevacantists aren't just like those of us who post here?  I.e. Educated, prudent, not-hothead types, etc?  Every Catholic I know took the sedevacantist position after much research, thought and prayer.

I've met many over the years. 

Let's set all the sedevacantists you and I know aside for the moment. Let's take a group of people who ARE emotional (emotion can be anger, frustration, disgust, etc.), and/or who like a clear-cut, cut-and-dried, simple solution. I assure you such people exist, and many of them are Catholic, and some are even Trad. Now which position are they likely to gravitate towards? I'd say Sedevacantism.

Perhaps sedevacantists are just another example of the 90% rule -- 90% of everything is crap. 90% of music, 90% of movies, 90% of books, 90% of Catholics are Catholic in name only, 90% of Trads are worldly and ignorant, 90% of websites are completely worthless, etc...

Even if CathInfo had 200 good sedevacantists (I doubt it's that many), that would still be 0 to 5% of the total.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 23, 2018, 09:26:05 PM
You're a LYING, LIAR, who lies....

The archbishop had a sedevacantist teaching in Econe. So long as they don't cause trouble, they are tolerated.

Probably because that is the best way to win them over.

You're insansity helps no one. Are you wondering why your forum flopped?


Anyway, I think Sean needs you in the batmobile.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSaDPc1Cs5U

These Irishmen are such emotional chaps:

1) The sede who was teaching in Econe was teaching in the 1970s, at a time when the world had not yet seen their true colors...and was later expelled for "causing trouble;"

2) But he, like all sedes, was so sure of himself (and full of himself) that he went and got himself consecrated a bishop...if it was valid;

3) BTW, way to have twice as many down-thumbs as thumbs-up: It means most people think you are a total jackass.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 23, 2018, 09:59:29 PM
Matthew could care less about that.

He has said so many times.

Just because I love and defend the truth doesn't mean I ban everyone who disagrees with me on this or that topic.

Loving truth, in the context of a forum owner, doesn't mean creating an "echo chamber" forum. I'm not interested in running a micro-forum and/or echo chamber. I'll leave others to that.

I'll run the BIG forum people keep coming back to, even when they hate it. (I'm sure you can relate to that.) CathInfo is the forum people post on when they want to raise money for a young widow with children, or get signatures to protest the latest sacrilege, or seek advice about a very specific situation -- in short, the forum where the people are.

And I want CathInfo to be a discussion forum where you can, well, discuss! ...and without having to look over your shoulder constantly for a ban hammer.

All that having been said, everyone who's been on CI for longer than 3 weeks knows I don't tolerate everyone or everything here. That wouldn't even be possible. There are some who simply won't live in peace with anyone who disagrees with them about anything. They go off on anyone and everyone, and produce nothing good but annoy everyone. And anyone who considers the forum to be a den of non-Catholics is quickly shown the door. Anyone who thinks the Catholic Church was rotten long before Vatican II (a.k.a. "malcontents" or "anti-Catholics") are also not welcome here. Dimond Brothers fans pretty much have to keep their opinion to themselves if they value their CI membership... And most Pfeifferites, due to having "learned from the best", can't get along with other Catholics and are quick to excommunicate all and sundry who aren't part of their cult.

And that's to say nothing of anyone who is manifestly heretical, such as the Manichean heretic "heitanen" who believes sex (even between married persons) is dirty or bad. He has a whole website with a lot of content spouting his heresies, complete with a whole page castigating me by name (after I banned him, of course).

Like I said...CathInfo is plenty moderated. I wish I had a nickel for every one I had to ban. But just about every one of them was practically *begging* for it, that's the funny thing. With a few exceptions (I am human after all), "when in doubt I don't ban".

P.S.
Click on the latest member to join -- member #5887. And yet CI only has 3347 (non-banned) members. The remainder were either trimmed from the database (years ago, when I was trying to make the site run faster -- these were defunct accounts obviously) and/or they were banned over the years. It just goes to show you how "many are called, but few are chosen."

CathInfo is not a free-for-all. It's just the best Trad forum out there, both free (as in beer) and free (as in liberty).
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 24, 2018, 05:15:34 AM
From "The Imitation of Christ", by St. Thomas a Kempis:

This is the greatest wisdom—to seek the kingdom of heaven through contempt of the world. It is vanity, therefore, to seek and trust in riches that perish. It is vanity also to court honor and to be puffed up with pride. It is vanity to follow the lusts of the body and to desire things for which severe punishment later must come. It is vanity to wish for a long life and to care little about a well-spent life. It is vanity to be concerned with the present only and not to make provision for things to come. It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides.
..
What good is it to live a long life when we amend that life so little? Indeed, a long life does not always benefit us, but on the contrary, frequently adds to our guilt. Would that in this world we had lived well throughout one single day. Many count up the years they have spent in religion but find their lives made little holier. If it is so terrifying to die, it is nevertheless possible that to live longer is more dangerous. Blessed is he who keeps the moment of death ever before his eyes and prepares for it every day.

Wake up Matthew. You pride yourself in running the "biggest and bestest" Trad forum, but the way you measure your forum's success is not the way God measures success. Allow me to paraphrase St. Thomas a Kempis:

It is vanity to run a big forum, and to care little about it being a good forum.

Many count the years they have spent on this forum but find their lives made little holier.


Instead of giving another beautiful sermon, please take some time out to think about it.

No need to ban me, as this was my last post here anyway.

God bless,

Samuel
Arrogant fool is all anyone has to say to this. Just because you lost an argument you demand all opposing viewpoints be banned, instead of trying to convince others of the correctness of your position.
If you're going to get all moralistic and call everyone you dislike the spawn of Satan, maybe you ought to look closer at yourself. Matthew has provided an excellent platform for the discussion of Traditional Catholicism, and he's allowed respectful non-Resistance to post so that they may be convinced of their errors. If they are disrespectful and imposing, they get banned. What he's doing is the work of an Evangelist. What you're doing is the cowardice of someone too ill-educated to argue his views, so you demand everyone who disagrees be banned. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on April 24, 2018, 07:13:56 AM
We have had bad Popes in the past along with bad times of sin in the world too.   

If we look at Archbishop LeFebvre, we see a Holy Priest who loves Jesus and His Church.  The Consecrations in 1988 forced Rome to "allow" the Latin Mass within dioceses.  I tried to find Archbishop Lefebvre after watching the Consecrations on tv with my parents.  I asked priests from our area who said SSPX was schismatic freaks or they didn't know.  At that point I was busy trying to survive economically. 

We all come from various back grounds.   But we are all Catholic trying survive.  
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 24, 2018, 08:16:08 AM
Wake up Matthew. You pride yourself in running the "biggest and bestest" Trad forum, but the way you measure your forum's success is not the way God measures success. Allow me to paraphrase St. Thomas a Kempis:

It is vanity to run a big forum, and to care little about it being a good forum.

Samuel

1. Is this your real final post, or is it like your previous "final post", or the "final post" before that one?
Also, I never said "biggest and bestest". Your use of quotation marks seems to claim that I did. That is false.

2. CathInfo happens to be both a big forum AND a good forum. I just hold different opinions re: how a Catholic forum should be run.
Just because a forum is large doesn't necessarily mean it's bad OR good. Same goes for a tiny forum. Most non-Catholic cults have a pretty small membership; does that mean they are the faithful remnant?

3. Wanting to ban all your opposition, or those with opinions that differ from your own, is indeed "the easy way out" and that is not always the highest path!

4. Just because I disagree with your personal opinions or personal standards (about forum moderation) does NOT mean I am asleep and/or offending God.

I'm only offending YOU and my eyes are quite wide open.

I've read a lot of Catholic literature, and nowhere have I ever seen it said that it's sinful to allow "sedevacantists" on an Internet message board. Has the Church ever ruled on this? I doubt it!

My point is that it's a matter of prudence. You have no law (sitting above both of us) which allows you to condemn me. All you can say is that my personal opinion contradicts your personal opinion.

"Big deal!" I say.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on April 24, 2018, 08:45:25 AM
Translation:
The sedes know flattery and traffic (appealing to vanity) will influence Matthew to keep CI a sedevacantist forum.
A sedevacantist forum where sedes are frequently banned is a very odd forum altogether.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 24, 2018, 08:57:35 AM
Samuel is hardly an impartial observer in this matter; he is quite involved in the Resistance with media sites of his own. He has run his own forum (ABL3.0) which never got beyond 120 or so members. In other words, he would LOVE to own a forum the size of CathInfo so he could spend one day banning all the sedevacantists and others who disagree with him. I'm sure it would be very cathartic for him. But he would be left with ABL 3.0 again (as far as forum size). hahaha

He also has started other website endeavors, but because of his temperament (etc.) he gets discouraged and gives up on them, or at least wants to.

I make it look easy by running the same forum, under the same structure, rules and management for TWELVE YEARS and counting. But the fact is that most websites don't last. The owners lose interest, get busy, get discouraged at how long it takes to build up traffic, or they get frustrated at the number one challenge of running a Trad forum: having to deal with so many flawed TRAD CATHOLICS.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: kiwiboy on April 24, 2018, 09:36:00 AM
Samuel is hardly an impartial observer in this matter; he is quite involved in the Resistance with media sites of his own. He has run his own forum (ABL3.0) which never got beyond 120 or so members. In other words, he would LOVE to own a forum the size of CathInfo so he could spend one day banning all the sedevacantists and others who disagree with him. I'm sure it would be very cathartic for him. But he would be left with ABL 3.0 again (as far as forum size). hahaha

He also has started other website endeavors, but because of his temperament (etc.) he gets discouraged and gives up on them.

I make it look easy by running the same forum, under the same structure, rules and management for TWELVE YEARS and counting. But the fact is that most websites don't last. The owners lose interest, get busy, get discouraged at how long it takes to build up traffic, etc.

He thinks that Bishop Williamson sits at home and listens to Beethoven all day.

That is what he said on his website.

His forum failed because he and sean are partially mentally unstable, and also very closed minded to new ideas (such as flat earth, but not limited to that.)
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: kiwiboy on April 24, 2018, 09:54:22 AM
These Irishmen are such emotional chaps:

1) The sede who was teaching in Econe was teaching in the 1970s, at a time when the world had not yet seen their true colors...and was later expelled for "causing trouble;"

2) But he, like all sedes, was so sure of himself (and full of himself) that he went and got himself consecrated a bishop...if it was valid;

3) BTW, way to have twice as many down-thumbs as thumbs-up: It means most people think you are a total jackass.

Whatungarongaro te tangata toitū te whenua

As man disappears from sight, the land remains
 - Maori proverb


True that many of them cause trouble, but they have been tolerated nonetheless since then also. My point still stands.

It doesn't mean you have to go to the opposite extreme of trying to create a parallel church, which one user made clear already you want to do.

Bit rich to try to make out that I am being the one who is a jackass....

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 24, 2018, 10:46:01 AM
He thinks that Bishop Williamson sits at home and listens to Beethoven all day.

That is what he said on his website.

His forum failed because he and sean are partially mentally unstable, and also very closed minded to new ideas (such as flat earth, but not limited to that.)

This is the crux of the problem.

Samuel, based on where he lives, has got to be at least part Irish. But what I know for sure is that he's big on action and is probably Choleric in temperament (a trait he shares with Sean Johnson, I might add)

Now the action part CAN BE good, when paired with patience. But all too many "action" types are just doing it because that's the only way to satisfy their temperament. They are doing it for purely human reasons -- for example, Fr. Pfeiffer. No one can say he wasn't "getting stuff done" and a man of action. The problem was, he had no patience and was overly attached to his own desires and ambitions. His own ambition got mixed up in his Catholic Action, to the point that he started embracing a fraudulent "bishop" and multiple priests tainted by scandal of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, perversion, etc.

The devil also tempted him (successfully) to attack his fellow priests and even bishops, when they went against his desires and ambition for power. Samuel should take note of this point, and beware for his own soul's sake.

Figuratively speaking, Samuel wants to gather a group of fighters, going from glen to glen, over hill and dale, gathering an army of tall and stout Irishmen bearing pikes, slowly but surely, growing larger by day, culminating in a great and glorious battle to win territory and freedom for the Resistance.

Anything short of this causes him frustration and impatience.

The fact he's also frustrated with +Williamson shows I'm at least in good company.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 24, 2018, 10:51:16 AM
If a traditional Catholic wants to believe that Francis isn't the pope, then fine. It's not that big a deal. What is a big deal is when they insist that all trads must hold that view, or that they must hold the view that Francis is the Pope, but he doesn't have jurisdiction. The lack of jurisdiction is the fashionable sede view of late. They shouldn't be pushing this on everyone.

Does it really matter? We are all trying to get through the Crisis as best we can. IMO, the sedes and sedewhatevers just muddy the waters. They take time away from things that are truly important, and that which we can have control over - such as our salvation, and the acknowledgement of Christ our King. There isn't anything we can do about whether or not the Pope is the Pope. Why waste time on it?

Pushing the sede or sedewhatever view is a distraction away from what is truly important. They are obsessive. And ornery. 

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: kiwiboy on April 24, 2018, 11:23:20 AM

The fact he's also frustrated with +Williamson shows I'm at least in good company.

Well I don't think we should be frustrated at all with the Bishop.

I don't agree with his thoughts on the Novus Ordo, but that is not something to be frustrated over. At his age we can just let it pass.

What I wish is people would listen to certain of his reflections more often, instead of their own notions.

I agree with the rest of your post.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 25, 2018, 10:38:56 AM
Here's a recent article from Sean Johnson's blog, which features an excerpt from a conference given by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1980. +ABL describes the problem with sedevacantism, and its inherent divisiveness. The interaction between +ABL and a sedevacantist is also given at the end, which is an example of the inherent divisiveness of sedevacantism. +ABL refused to give a public platform to the sede, and refused to talk to him during the conference. He invited the sede instead to talk to him after the conference. That's not very ecuмenical of him! 

http://sodalitium-pianum.com/the-inherent-divisiveness-of-sedevacantism/
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 25, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Are people turning to sedevacantism because of your forum? 

Hardly.  My experience is that once people have chosen their position (R&R, sedevacantist, etc.) they RARELY move but attack the other side tooth and nail.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 25, 2018, 11:14:54 AM
Here's a recent article from Sean Johnson's blog, which features an excerpt from a conference given by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1980. 

Selective point-in-time snapshot.  It's well known that +Lefebvre went back and forth on the question over the years.  He had a renewed optimism after the election of Wojtyla ... since Montini had become hostile.  But a few years later, around the time of Assisi he came a hair's breadth away from becoming publicly sedevacantist.

For a more balanced/objective view (in which you are obviously not interested) of his attitude towards sedevacantism, see here:
http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 25, 2018, 11:22:06 AM
Quote
If a traditional Catholic wants to believe that Francis isn't the pope, then fine. It's not that big a deal. What is a big deal is when they insist that all trads must hold that view, or that they must hold the view that Francis is the Pope, but he doesn't have jurisdiction.
My motivation is to fight the 'dogmatic' sede view, which is growing.  This dogmatic, excessive and self-authoritarian stance is causing division in families, churches and in tradition.  I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.  This has been going on for decades, but it is growing in some areas (and Fr Cekada is a big cause).  This type of stuff is supremely uncharitable and sinful (for its uncharity, for its denial of mass/sacraments, and for its schismatic-like "church rules") and the devil loves it.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 25, 2018, 11:25:16 AM
Quote
No, it is absolutely "TRULY IMPORTANT" to determine if these men are popes.
It's an unanswerable question.  No one's opinion outside of the Church's decision matters.  At best, one can come up with a 'high probability' for x, y or z, but there will never be certainty until the Church says so.  Hence, outside of a fun, intellectual debate, or to correct extreme views (i.e. the "una cuм" ridiculousness), it's a waste of time.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 25, 2018, 11:29:58 AM
My motivation is to fight the 'dogmatic' sede view, which is growing.  This dogmatic, excessive and self-authoritarian stance is causing division in families, churches and in tradition.  I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.  This has been going on for decades, but it is growing in some areas (and Fr Cekada is a big cause).  This type of stuff is supremely uncharitable and sinful (for its uncharity, for its denial of mass/sacraments, and for its schismatic-like "church rules") and the devil loves it.

Yes, exactly! And yes, the devil loves it. And the sedes are alright with that, apparently. They seem to enjoy the division that they cause. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 25, 2018, 12:36:47 PM
I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.

Really?  I've known no one who was denied the Sacraments for this reason.  I've known it to happen to Feeneyites.  CMRI, SSPV, and most sede groups openly tolerate non-sedevacantist views.  You only have a couple small enclaves of radicals (e.g. +Sanborn, Fr. Cekada, etc.) who MAY do this, though even in their case I have no knowledge of them ever having done so.  I may be wrong on that though.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Meg on April 25, 2018, 01:17:17 PM
Ultimately this will end in the Traditionalist movement becoming home aloners if not some becoming atheists. Home alone has become significant in the Post Falls area and is growing. Divide and then exterminate. The devils venom is doing its job.

I didn't know that home alone has become a significant problem in Post Falls. There must be a general confusion among many there.

I now have to wonder if maybe Bp. Fellay was right when he talked about the risk of schism by staying away from Rome. Not that I'm for reconciliation, but the schismatic mentality is getting stronger among trads, if this forum is any indication.

Many trads don't seem to have the ability anymore to stay with what +ABL wisely taught, since the SSPX changed it's course, and the sedes have infiltrated trad ranks. Between the two factors, it's a sad situation.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: hismajesty on April 25, 2018, 03:56:58 PM
Ultimately this will end in the Traditionalist movement becoming home aloners if not some becoming atheists. Home alone has become significant in the Post Falls area and is growing. Divide and then exterminate. The devils venom is doing its job.


Where there is no resistance Mass a Catholic should stay at home.

This has nothing to do with sedevacantism or liberalism. It is simply catholic moral theology that you cannot attend the Mass of a heretic.

The SSPX are formally aligned with the conciliar church which makes them modernist heretics.

There is no two ways to fudge this. It is the truth.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 25, 2018, 04:25:59 PM
Quote
Where there is no resistance Mass a Catholic should stay at home.
One has an obligation to attend a valid, licit and moral mass, under pain of hell, regardless of the priest's views (assuming he's a valid priest).  The resistance masses are not the only masses.

Quote
This has nothing to do with sedevacantism or liberalism. It is simply catholic moral theology that you cannot attend the Mass of a heretic.
If you're talking about the novus ordo mass, I agree, it's heretical.  Outside of this, you're being extreme.

Quote
The SSPX are formally aligned with the conciliar church which makes them modernist heretics.
The SSPX is very close to being 'red lighted' in my opinion, but not yet.  Sunday masses, by and large, still fulfill one's sunday obligation, even if the sermon is full of propaganda and the church is full of sheeple.  Until the sspx formally becomes indult, and outside of marriage masses where the novus ordo "priests" are involved, I would attend if I had to.  The obligation to honor God through a valid and pleasing Mass outweighs any ancillary questionable orthodoxy. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Mr G on April 25, 2018, 04:33:36 PM
http://tradcatresist.blogspot.ie/ (http://tradcatresist.blogspot.ie/)

by Don Curzio Nitoglia (https://tinyurl.com/ycuq8puw)

Due to the actions of Pope Francis (and arguably Bishop Fellay's trajectory i.e the refusal of the SSPX to loudly condemn those actions) sedevacantism has made great gains throughout tradition over the last couple of years.

Personally, I have never known as many people question a Pope's legitimacy, and never expected that even conservative Catholic's would be asking the same thing.

Perhaps due to a combination of a conspiratorial nature, and ahem "quirkiness" that one finds in the resistance, the question of sedevacantism has now begun to divide cleric and layman alike. This is only to be expected, if one has left behind a "comfortable" existence with the SSPX for 'refusing to compromise with error' then one can hardly blame people for 'blowing a gasket' when they find themselves fighting needless arguments within a remnant of a remnant.

http://tradcatresist.blogspot.ie/ (http://tradcatresist.blogspot.ie/)
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Ladislaus on April 25, 2018, 07:46:23 PM
I now have to wonder if maybe Bp. Fellay was right when he talked about the risk of schism by staying away from Rome.

Archbishop Lefebvre:

Quote
“To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (July 29, 1976, Reflections on the Suspension a divinis)

“To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)


“So we are [to be] excommunicated by Modernists, by people who have been condemned by previous popes. So what can that really do? We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned…” (Press conference, Ecône, June 15 1988 )


Post-consecration statement (Summer 1988 ), SSPX school Bitsche, Alsace-Lorraine: “the archbishop stated, going even beyond even his 15th June press conference, that those who had excommunicated him had themselves long been excommunicated.” (Summary in the Counter-Reformation Association’s, News and Views, Candlemas 1996)


"I should be very happy to be excommunicated from this Conciliar Church… It is a Church that I do not recognize. I belong to the Catholic Church.” (Interview July 30 1976, published in Minute, no. 747)


“We have never wished to belong to this system that calls itself the Conciliar Church. To be excommunicated by a decree of your eminence…would be the irrefutable proof that we do not. We ask for nothing better than to be declared ex communione…excluded from impious communion with infidels.” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 leading SSPX priests, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on April 25, 2018, 08:53:28 PM
One has an obligation to attend a valid, licit and moral mass, under pain of hell, regardless of the priest's views (assuming he's a valid priest).  The resistance masses are not the only masses.
If you're talking about the novus ordo mass, I agree, it's heretical.  Outside of this, you're being extreme.
The SSPX is very close to being 'red lighted' in my opinion, but not yet.  Sunday masses, by and large, still fulfill one's sunday obligation, even if the sermon is full of propaganda and the church is full of sheeple.  Until the sspx formally becomes indult, and outside of marriage masses where the novus ordo "priests" are involved, I would attend if I had to.  The obligation to honor God through a valid and pleasing Mass outweighs any ancillary questionable orthodoxy.

You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.

Your idea about holding your nose through propaganda, etc. does not ring true for me:

1. If you have any children, they are going to absorb much more of it than you are.
2. You will be surrounded by (mostly, with a few exceptions) the worst of sheeple, who will influence you, your spouse, and your children. These are the type who don't have the fortitude to start OR EVEN SUPPORT EXISTING Resistance Mass centers. Remember that there are a few Resistance locations with full chapels, and weekly Sunday Mass. But the nearby SSPX chapels are hardly empty! They are populated by those who are afraid of getting on a priest's bad side, afraid to speak up for their beliefs -- basically ANTI-MARTYRS (i.e., the opposite of a martyr). In short, these are the opposite of the type of people I admire or want to associate with. And I certainly don't want my children to imitate such cowards and sellouts.
3. Your argument could have been, and in fact WAS, used in the 1970's to justify continued attendance at the Novus Ordo, at least until a Trad option appeared. But the record shows that the Traditional Movement was founded by those who left the Novus Ordo first, and got their Trad Mass much later. The pioneers and heroes of the Trad movement all left the Novus Ordo regardless of having a Trad option immediately available. After all, it's impossible to start building a lifeboat when you're still messing about on the sinking ship.

It's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. Those who think it's about the Mass end up at the Indult -- they have their Mass, and they're happy. But it's not just the Mass. It's the whole FAITH that was attacked and replaced at Vatican II.

The SSPX thinks they have us by the unmentionables since they control 90% of the Mass centers in the US. Perhaps they're right -- I know a lot of Catholics sympathetic to the Resistance but who attend Mass at the SSPX because they have no better choice.

It's a shame more people couldn't stick to principles, and basically not let the SSPX get away with it. But in fact, they seem to be getting away with it, because they dangle Sunday Mass over our collective heads.


PS. You are also forgetting that if it was legitimate to leave the Novus Ordo/Conciliar Church in the 70's and onward, it's equally legitimate to leave an organization (SSPX) that has unlawful commerce (kind of like "unlawful carnal knowledge") with said group. The SSPX is pushing Novus Ordo priest (or "priest") witnessed marriages, they are toning down resistance to Vatican II, etc. and that is sufficient reason to leave and not look back. I, and my children, don't need to have our defenses disassembled so that the worst heresy ever (Modernism) can spill over the broken rubble of the castle walls and infect our minds and hearts.

We have a right to keep our Faith intact.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Centroamerica on April 25, 2018, 09:05:22 PM
My motivation is to fight the 'dogmatic' sede view, which is growing.  This dogmatic, excessive and self-authoritarian stance is causing division in families, churches and in tradition.  I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.  This has been going on for decades, but it is growing in some areas (and Fr Cekada is a big cause).  This type of stuff is supremely uncharitable and sinful (for its uncharity, for its denial of mass/sacraments, and for its schismatic-like "church rules") and the devil loves it.
This is where Pax Vobis and I do agree. Dogmatic sedevacantists can be worse than dogmatic sedeplenists, even though the terms can be switched around in his post and hold true for the most part.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: St Ignatius on April 25, 2018, 09:48:06 PM
Taken from Sodalitium Pianum, for those of the remnant that may be interested...  

“Universal and Peaceful Acceptance” According to John of St. Thomas
April 25, 2018

Cursus Theologicus of John of St. Thomas
Tome 6.  Questions 1-7 on Faith.  Disputation 8.
~ Article 2 ~
When a pope has been legitimately elected, is it de fide, either per se primo or per se secundo, that this particular person—for instance, Innocent X—is the pope?

Read here...
sodalitium-pianum.com/universal-and-peaceful-acceptance-by-john-of-st-thomas (http://sodalitium-pianum.com/universal-and-peaceful-acceptance-by-john-of-st-thomas)

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 26, 2018, 12:46:39 AM
Quote
You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.
Matthew,
What i'm setting up as an 'either-or' is the current choice of a hypothetical catholic.  Either sspx or "stay at home" (i.e. no sunday mass).  Based on current knowledge, I would say that one must attend the sspx vs stay at home.  The sspx has not yet reached the threshold of heresy which would inform us that we must treat them as deniers of the Faith.  When I say "red light" I mean:  you can't go to the sspx, under any circuмstances, no ifs, ands or buts.  I have this stance in relation to the novus ordo and indult.  I do not believe the sspx is 'red lighted' yet.

Currently, I do not think the sspx has this such extreme label.  It may be different, depending on where you live and on how liberal the sspx priest is, but at this point, the organization has not aligned themselves with rome and the novus ordo, so I say that their priests are valid, their masses are valid (and licit and moral) so they fulfill one's sunday obligation.

This is a generality.  I am in no way an oracle on all things sspx, nor on all things which are happening in all their chapels.  Please don't take my stance as someone "in the know" but of one making a generalized statement, based on generalized knowledge which can be known from your site.  I don't know anything more than you.  I'm simply making a philosophical argument that one's sunday obligation to glorify God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and fulfill the 3rd Commandment, MUST be fulfilled, if at all possible, regardless of the political, religious and social storms brewing.  Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass...

Obviously, if one has a better priest and a better catholic atmosphere in which to attend Mass, they should do so.  But if it comes down to "Go to sspx" or "stay at home and miss mass" I think going to an sspx mass is the only option.  The graces God will bestow on you and your family are COUNTLESS.  The Mass is THE prayer of the Church.  It's merits are PRICELESS.  

God knows what one may go through to attend His Mass.  He will bless you for your sacrifices, even if you endure persecution to get there, or afterwards...
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: hismajesty on April 26, 2018, 02:20:07 AM
Thanks for the lectures about sacrifice.

But the greatest sacrifice we can make is to do the will of God in all things.

He shows his will through the moral theology of the Church.

It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the priest.

Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics.

Look it up.


The SSPX has made 4 deals with Rome. One would be enough to make them part of the conciliar, modernist church.

It's that simple. If you go to an SSPX Mass you make a public statement to God and others that you agree with that. End of story. And if you go are you receiving communion? Are you in union with them? Are you giving to the collection? Why would you financially support Bishop Fellay? If not why are you going then? The sacraments are not toys to make us feel good. Grace can't be felt.

Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: 2Vermont on April 26, 2018, 06:34:37 AM
This is where Pax Vobis and I do agree. Dogmatic sedevacantists can be worse than dogmatic sedeplenists, even though the terms can be switched around in his post and hold true for the most part.
The only difference here is that one gets banned; the other does not.  So much for Samuel's and Sean's assertion that this forum is a "sedevacantist" forum.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Centroamerica on April 26, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
These days you have to judge any chapel on a case by case basis. Personally, I stopped going to a nearby SSPX chapel because of the occasional visit of a dubiously ordained priest. I could call ahead of time each week and find out which priest will be coming, or I could attend an Eastern Liturgy once a month and occasionally visit a CMRI chapel. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Stubborn on April 26, 2018, 07:49:28 AM
Thanks for the lectures about sacrifice.

But the greatest sacrifice we can make is to do the will of God in all things.

He shows his will through the moral theology of the Church.

It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the priest.

Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics.

Look it up.


The SSPX has made 4 deals with Rome. One would be enough to make them part of the conciliar, modernist church.

It's that simple. If you go to an SSPX Mass you make a public statement to God and others that you agree with that. End of story. And if you go are you receiving communion? Are you in union with them? Are you giving to the collection? Why would you financially support Bishop Fellay? If not why are you going then? The sacraments are not toys to make us feel good. Grace can't be felt.
Can you please post it because I would like to see what moral theology says about going to the Mass and receiving the sacraments from SSPX.

The SSPX are not schismatics, nor are they heretics - not at my SSPX chapel, nor have I heard anything schismatic or heretical from the pulpit from any SSPX anywhere - perhaps it has happened but not to my knowledge. We all know that since it's inception, nearly the entire world has believed them to be in schism or excommunicated or whatever, but we know those who believe as such are, and have always been wrong about that, so what specifically are you talking about?

As you said, it's about the priest.

Yes, +Fellay et al. are doing the slow boil unto their own destruction, but their priests and sacraments are valid until proven otherwise - and when you are in dire need of a priest, you will never regret receiving the last rites and blessings from an SSPX priest, who often travel great distances to get them to you.


   
 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on February 08, 2019, 04:12:15 PM
If a group of 4 men were lost in the deep woods, trying to survive, not having perfect information about their situation (distance to nearest town, location of any other people in the area, etc.)
there might be disagreement about the best course of action.

Some might want to head north, some might want to head east, some might want to stay put and wait for a rescue team. Can the person who wants to head West accuse the man who wants to head North of bad will, or wanting to die? There is confusion and lack of full information; they all just want to survive, but they might have different ideas about how to best accomplish that.

How this applies to the Crisis in the Church should be obvious.

I actually read one prominent Trad mock the above statement, saying "Equals, there is no truth, so each do what one feels is right, because they are all right."
YOU BET!  When it comes to the Crisis, there is no truth, at least none that we can brandish and condemn each other with. As I've said a million times, Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother have not yet made their opinions known on the Crisis in any recent apparitions. So we're all left to our own devices here.

The best we can hope for is a well-researched, prudential LIKELIHOOD, or MOST PROBABLE -- enough to act on. But we can't have the certainty of Faith on this. How would we ever get the certainty of Faith on this? Is the Pope going to rule on which Trad group is favored by God?


I've seen serious, intelligent, holy Catholics of good will fervently push Sedevacantism, R&R, etc. I've even seen some push Conservative Catholic/Indult position.

It's not for us to condemn this or that Traditional Catholic as being non-Catholic. Once you accept such behavior, you end up with the Dimond Brothers -- excommunicating everyone they disagree with. You see a similar thing in Pfeifferville.
So when I talk about "Trad-cuмenism" or say that I embrace the same, I'm talking about a rejection of Schism. I refuse to cut off communion with Catholics who are objectively part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

I will not mistake confusion in the Church or material error with malicious heresy!


Another said:

Quote
Fr. Michael Muller - The Church and Her Enemies:

"It is impious to say, ' I respect every religion.' This is as much to say: I respect the devil as much as I respect God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."


This same straight-forward kind of talk applies very well to the ecuмenical mindset that permeates even traditional circles. There can only be one true Catholic Faith. There cannot be flavors of belief. There can be different approved rites. But even those different rites all have the same beliefs. There is always a common denominator of the true faith.

All this trad-ecuмenism is a temptest and distraction of Hell. It is the proverbial 'dialoging' of Vatican II. 'All religions have something to offer.'
False. The Catholic Church is the only true Church. The Catholic Faith is the only true Faith - unadulterated.

Who's talking about different religions? We're not talking about ACTUAL EcuмENISM here...but TRAD-cuмENISM. Huge difference!
There is only one True Faith, but within the bounds of that True Faith, which Trad group is preferred by God? Nobody knows. So we respect them all. Not all false religions, just all Trad Catholic groups!
Moron!


We all started out a bunch of Catholics drowning in the ocean.
A group of Catholics who opted to climb into a different TEMPORARY LIFEBOAT than me do not deserve to be treated as condemned heretics, excommunicated vitandi (to-be-avoided) ex-Catholics.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: confederate catholic on February 08, 2019, 06:42:55 PM
One of the biggest problems is that people reach conclusions without sufficiently understanding the actual theology because it can not be studied without a guide and even for those who have studied it, it doesn't exist in a vacuum it is a living thing that is fasted and prayed over so that it becomes part of your life.

The quick condemnations of things that the church itself has not given dogmatic definition to is supposed to be open to debate until the church itself orders silence. We are not the church and we should be very grateful to Matthew for allowing debate
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Incredulous on February 08, 2019, 09:43:38 PM
Some ex-Pfeiffer people went FSSP.
Some people received curses, some people went crazy, many dogs & chickens died... :facepalm:
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: JmJ2cents on February 09, 2019, 10:38:05 PM
It is what it is and those of us who agree with Samuel just have to put up with it.  Mathew is in charge here and he is the one who has to answer for it, not us.  
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Nishant Xavier on February 13, 2019, 11:49:44 PM
Quote from: HisMajesty
It is not about the MASS being heretical. It is about the Priest. 
Quote
Moral theology forbids us to go to valid, traditional Masses of schismatics. Look it up.

As Stubborn said, the SSPX are not schismatics, so this doesn't apply in the least. The Faithful who attend SSPX Masses are Baptized and Confirmed Catholics. The Bishops and Priests of the SSPX are Consecrated Shepherds and Ordained Clerics of the Catholic Church who all profess the Catholic Faith. That is all. There is no grounds for claiming them as non-Catholics.

They now have regular faculties and ordinary jurisdiction from Rome. Does canonical approval from Rome make one "schismatic"? 

If so, then the SSPX was "schismatic" once before when it was setup by the Bishop of Fribourg in Switzerland, which is obviously absurd. The right way to see it is canonical normalization from Rome is good and to be sought if possible. But if it is denied unjustly, then we just carry on as is. That's how Archbishop Lefebvre saw it. We could make the argument St. Athanasius did the same in Arian times during the weakness of Pope Liberius, but he never declared there was no Pope, much less that there was no jurisdictional hierarchy, or that everyone should break from Rome, or anything else like that. And that's how the SSPX still sees it. We don't have to be Donatists and we don't have to worry what others in the wider Church do, except by trying to convert them when we can. We need to carry on Tradition as is, and if Rome wants to grant us normal faculties, there's no reason to say no. And that doesn't make the SSPX schismatic at all. 
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Matthew on February 14, 2019, 08:04:08 AM
I'm simply making a philosophical argument that one's sunday obligation to glorify God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and fulfill the 3rd Commandment, MUST be fulfilled, if at all possible, regardless of the political, religious and social storms brewing.  Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass...

Obviously, if one has a better priest and a better catholic atmosphere in which to attend Mass, they should do so.  But if it comes down to "Go to sspx" or "stay at home and miss mass" I think going to an sspx mass is the only option.  The graces God will bestow on you...

God knows what one may go through to attend His Mass.  He will bless you for your sacrifices, even if you endure persecution to get there, or afterwards...

First of all, the Third Commandment is to "keep holy the Lord's Day", not to attend Sunday Mass. There is a difference. The commandment to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is actually a Commandment of the Church. But this only applies to normal times, which we are NOT in.

Second of all, "Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass..."? Seriously? Are you really resorting to a straw man argument? I want to say something snarky like, "But my priest has horrible B.O. I'm going to stay home from Mass with my family." Is that why you think some Resistance supporters have left the SSPX? Personality conflicts and mere personal dislike? The priest just rubs us the wrong way? Come on, you know better than that!

Lastly, your argument would 100% apply to attendance at the Novus Ordo and Indult as well. "The Mass has infinite graces, it's the Sacrifice of Our Lord Himself, He will reward us for attendance, even if we have to suffer and "hold our nose" during various parts like the sentimental music, the Handshake of Peace, altar girls...
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 14, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Quote
First of all, the Third Commandment is to "keep holy the Lord's Day", not to attend Sunday Mass. There is a difference. The commandment to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is actually a Commandment of the Church. But this only applies to normal times, which we are NOT in.
No, there isn't a difference.  The Church defines what "keeping the Lord's day holy" means, which is, to attend mass.  There are exceptions to this, which can apply in times of emergency, which we are living through.

Quote
Second of all, "Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass..."? Seriously? Are you really resorting to a straw man argument? I want to say something snarky like, "But my priest has horrible B.O. I'm going to stay home from Mass with my family." Is that why you think some Resistance supporters have left the SSPX? Personality conflicts and mere personal dislike? The priest just rubs us the wrong way? Come on, you know better than that!
This was not directed at you so I don't know why you're getting offended by it.  I've known plenty of people who view the mass/faith in a superficial manner, based on the priest.  My comments were for them.  If the shoe fits...

Quote
Lastly, your argument would 100% apply to attendance at the Novus Ordo and Indult as well. "The Mass has infinite graces, it's the Sacrifice of Our Lord Himself, He will reward us for attendance, even if we have to suffer and "hold our nose" during various parts like the sentimental music, the Handshake of Peace, altar girls...
Absolutely it does not apply to the novus ordo or indult because these masses are 1) illicit 2) doubtfully valid, and 3) immoral.

My original argument is that IF the main problem with an new-sspx mass is one of PROPAGANDA during a sermon, then that is not a reason enough to "red light" them.  Propaganda is not error or heresy, which are both part of the novus ordo (heretical non-mass) and indult (public acceptance of heretical non-mass).  I define Propaganda as meaning indirect or subtle promotion/acceptance of new-rome's authority or to the political "let's a make a deal with new-rome" situation.

Once a new-sspx priest crosses the line into outright heresy - i.e. promoting V2, or promoting heresy, or any other modernism - then that priest/chapel should be "red lighted".  Until then, the neo-sspx provides valid, licit and moral masses (in general).  All of this must be decided on a case by case basis, but overall, the new-sspx cannot be written off as heretical...yet.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: forlorn on February 14, 2019, 12:56:24 PM

Absolutely it does not apply to the novus ordo or indult because these masses are 1) illicit 2) doubtfully valid, and 3) immoral.

Trent: 
CANON IV.--If any one saith, that, by the sacrifice of the mass, a blasphemy is cast upon the most holy sacrifice of Christ consummated on the cross; or, that it is thereby derogated from; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.

CANON VII.--If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.


Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 14, 2019, 01:40:03 PM
Forlorn, I'm not going to get into a theological debate about the deficiencies of the new mass on this thread, but if you want to discuss, send me a PM.
Title: Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
Post by: Nishant Xavier on February 15, 2019, 11:33:46 PM
I would say unless you have evidence either a Priest is non-Catholic or a Mass is unCatholic, you should try to assist at the Holy Sacrifice as far as possible. SSPX TLM, Indult TLM or Resistance TLM is still the True Holy Mass. Bishop Fellay recently said, "I rejoice everytime a Tridentine Mass is celebrated" https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/preach-the-faith-but-preach-it-fully/ I would not object to even going to a Resistance Mass if it was the only option I had. The Mass is indispensable for all creation. Holy Communion is called the Bread of Life. Far more important than the miraculous manna Almighty God gave the people of Israel in the desert. John 6:[54] "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day." St. Thomas suggests a person gains more merit every week by assisting devoutly at Holy Mass and receiving Holy Communion reverently than if he were himself to die and offer his life in sacrifice to God each time. St. John Vianney says the same when he says Holy Mass profits more than martyrdom itself for love of God - such a great act in itself - would profit, because Mass is the Sacrifice of God for man, while martyrdom is the sacrifice of man to God. But we should unite all our works and sufferings as offerings to God and our daily Cross to Holy Mass to derive the greatest value and the fullest fruit from participating in the Holy Sacrifice. At the very least, we should be making Spiritual Communions frequently, after good preparation at home, if it is not possible to go to Mass for a long time. We shouldn't neglect that, as thinking we can keep the Faith for a long time without Mass is, in the words of some saints, like "trying to fly without wings" Not absolutely impossible to God, but practically speaking very, very difficult for us. This is St. John Marie Vianney.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Blessed_Cur%C3%A9_of_Ars_in_His_Catechetical_Instructions

Quote
CHAPTER 13 :Catechism on Frequent Communion
MY CHILDREN, all beings in creation require to be fed, that they may live; for this purpose God has made trees and plants grow; it is a well-served table, to which all animals come and take the food which suits each one. But the soul also must be fed. Where, then, is its food? My brethren, the food of the soul is God. Ah! what a beautiful thought! The soul can feed on nothing but God. Only God can suffice for it; only God can fill it; only God can satiate its hunger; it absolutely requires its God! There is in all houses a place where the provisions of the family are kept; it is the store-room. The church is the home of souls; it is the house belonging to us, who are Christians. Well, in this house there is a store-room. Do you see the tabernacle? If the souls of Christians were asked, "What is that?" your souls would answer, "It is the store-room. "
There is nothing so great, my children, as the Eucharist! Put all the good works in the world against one good Communion; they will be like a grain of dust beside a mountain. Make a prayer when you have the good God in your heart; the good God will not be able to refuse you anything, if you offer Him His Son, and the merits of His holy death and Passion. My children, if we understood the value of Holy Communion, we should avoid the least faults, that we might have the happiness of making it oftener. We should keep our souls always pure in the eyes of God. My children, I suppose that you have been to confession today, and you will watch over yourselves; you will be happy in the thought that tomorrow you will have the joy of receiving the good God into your heart. Neither can you offend the good God tomorrow; your soul will be all embalmed with the precious Blood of Our Lord. Oh, beautiful life!
O my children, how beautiful will a soul be in eternity that has worthily and often received the good God! The Body of Our Lord will shine through our body, His adorable Blood through our blood; our soul will be united to the Soul of Our Lord during all eternity. There it will enjoy pure and perfect happiness. My children, when the soul of a Christian who has received Our Lord enters paradise, it augments the joy of Heaven. The Angels and the Queen of Angels come to meet it, because they recognize the Son of God in that soul. Then will that soul be rewarded for the pains and sacrifices it will have endured in its life on earth. My children, we know when a soul has worthily received the Sacrament of the Eucharist, it is so drowned in love, so penetrated and changed, that it is no longer to be recognised in its words or its actions. . . . It is humble, it is gentle, it is mortified, charitable, and modest; it is at peace with everyone. It is a soul capable of the greatest sacrifices; in short, you would not know it again.