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Author Topic: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo  (Read 14190 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2018, 07:46:23 PM »
I now have to wonder if maybe Bp. Fellay was right when he talked about the risk of schism by staying away from Rome.

Archbishop Lefebvre:

Quote
“To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (July 29, 1976, Reflections on the Suspension a divinis)

“To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)


“So we are [to be] excommunicated by Modernists, by people who have been condemned by previous popes. So what can that really do? We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned…” (Press conference, Ecône, June 15 1988 )


Post-consecration statement (Summer 1988 ), SSPX school Bitsche, Alsace-Lorraine: “the archbishop stated, going even beyond even his 15th June press conference, that those who had excommunicated him had themselves long been excommunicated.” (Summary in the Counter-Reformation Association’s, News and Views, Candlemas 1996)


"I should be very happy to be excommunicated from this Conciliar Church… It is a Church that I do not recognize. I belong to the Catholic Church.” (Interview July 30 1976, published in Minute, no. 747)


“We have never wished to belong to this system that calls itself the Conciliar Church. To be excommunicated by a decree of your eminence…would be the irrefutable proof that we do not. We ask for nothing better than to be declared ex communione…excluded from impious communion with infidels.” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 leading SSPX priests, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)


Offline Matthew

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2018, 08:53:28 PM »
One has an obligation to attend a valid, licit and moral mass, under pain of hell, regardless of the priest's views (assuming he's a valid priest).  The resistance masses are not the only masses.
If you're talking about the novus ordo mass, I agree, it's heretical.  Outside of this, you're being extreme.
The SSPX is very close to being 'red lighted' in my opinion, but not yet.  Sunday masses, by and large, still fulfill one's sunday obligation, even if the sermon is full of propaganda and the church is full of sheeple.  Until the sspx formally becomes indult, and outside of marriage masses where the novus ordo "priests" are involved, I would attend if I had to.  The obligation to honor God through a valid and pleasing Mass outweighs any ancillary questionable orthodoxy.

You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.

Your idea about holding your nose through propaganda, etc. does not ring true for me:

1. If you have any children, they are going to absorb much more of it than you are.
2. You will be surrounded by (mostly, with a few exceptions) the worst of sheeple, who will influence you, your spouse, and your children. These are the type who don't have the fortitude to start OR EVEN SUPPORT EXISTING Resistance Mass centers. Remember that there are a few Resistance locations with full chapels, and weekly Sunday Mass. But the nearby SSPX chapels are hardly empty! They are populated by those who are afraid of getting on a priest's bad side, afraid to speak up for their beliefs -- basically ANTI-MARTYRS (i.e., the opposite of a martyr). In short, these are the opposite of the type of people I admire or want to associate with. And I certainly don't want my children to imitate such cowards and sellouts.
3. Your argument could have been, and in fact WAS, used in the 1970's to justify continued attendance at the Novus Ordo, at least until a Trad option appeared. But the record shows that the Traditional Movement was founded by those who left the Novus Ordo first, and got their Trad Mass much later. The pioneers and heroes of the Trad movement all left the Novus Ordo regardless of having a Trad option immediately available. After all, it's impossible to start building a lifeboat when you're still messing about on the sinking ship.

It's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. Those who think it's about the Mass end up at the Indult -- they have their Mass, and they're happy. But it's not just the Mass. It's the whole FAITH that was attacked and replaced at Vatican II.

The SSPX thinks they have us by the unmentionables since they control 90% of the Mass centers in the US. Perhaps they're right -- I know a lot of Catholics sympathetic to the Resistance but who attend Mass at the SSPX because they have no better choice.

It's a shame more people couldn't stick to principles, and basically not let the SSPX get away with it. But in fact, they seem to be getting away with it, because they dangle Sunday Mass over our collective heads.


PS. You are also forgetting that if it was legitimate to leave the Novus Ordo/Conciliar Church in the 70's and onward, it's equally legitimate to leave an organization (SSPX) that has unlawful commerce (kind of like "unlawful carnal knowledge") with said group. The SSPX is pushing Novus Ordo priest (or "priest") witnessed marriages, they are toning down resistance to Vatican II, etc. and that is sufficient reason to leave and not look back. I, and my children, don't need to have our defenses disassembled so that the worst heresy ever (Modernism) can spill over the broken rubble of the castle walls and infect our minds and hearts.

We have a right to keep our Faith intact.


Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2018, 09:05:22 PM »
My motivation is to fight the 'dogmatic' sede view, which is growing.  This dogmatic, excessive and self-authoritarian stance is causing division in families, churches and in tradition.  I've known many people who have been denied Holy Communion or banned from hearing mass because they would not hold 'sedevacantism'.  This has been going on for decades, but it is growing in some areas (and Fr Cekada is a big cause).  This type of stuff is supremely uncharitable and sinful (for its uncharity, for its denial of mass/sacraments, and for its schismatic-like "church rules") and the devil loves it.
This is where Pax Vobis and I do agree. Dogmatic sedevacantists can be worse than dogmatic sedeplenists, even though the terms can be switched around in his post and hold true for the most part.

Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2018, 09:48:06 PM »
Taken from Sodalitium Pianum, for those of the remnant that may be interested...  

“Universal and Peaceful Acceptance” According to John of St. Thomas
April 25, 2018

Cursus Theologicus of John of St. Thomas
Tome 6.  Questions 1-7 on Faith.  Disputation 8.
~ Article 2 ~
When a pope has been legitimately elected, is it de fide, either per se primo or per se secundo, that this particular person—for instance, Innocent X—is the pope?

Read here...
sodalitium-pianum.com/universal-and-peaceful-acceptance-by-john-of-st-thomas


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2018, 12:46:39 AM »
Quote
You might JUSTIFY going to an SSPX Mass perhaps, but you cannot CONDEMN those who choose to abstain at this time. There is a difference.
I suppose it comes back to "red light" vs "yellow light".  Yellow light it's up to your discretion whether you want to hit the brake or hit the gas. Red light you have no (moral) choice but to come to a stop.
Matthew,
What i'm setting up as an 'either-or' is the current choice of a hypothetical catholic.  Either sspx or "stay at home" (i.e. no sunday mass).  Based on current knowledge, I would say that one must attend the sspx vs stay at home.  The sspx has not yet reached the threshold of heresy which would inform us that we must treat them as deniers of the Faith.  When I say "red light" I mean:  you can't go to the sspx, under any circuмstances, no ifs, ands or buts.  I have this stance in relation to the novus ordo and indult.  I do not believe the sspx is 'red lighted' yet.

Currently, I do not think the sspx has this such extreme label.  It may be different, depending on where you live and on how liberal the sspx priest is, but at this point, the organization has not aligned themselves with rome and the novus ordo, so I say that their priests are valid, their masses are valid (and licit and moral) so they fulfill one's sunday obligation.

This is a generality.  I am in no way an oracle on all things sspx, nor on all things which are happening in all their chapels.  Please don't take my stance as someone "in the know" but of one making a generalized statement, based on generalized knowledge which can be known from your site.  I don't know anything more than you.  I'm simply making a philosophical argument that one's sunday obligation to glorify God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and fulfill the 3rd Commandment, MUST be fulfilled, if at all possible, regardless of the political, religious and social storms brewing.  Even if one does not like the priest who offers Mass...

Obviously, if one has a better priest and a better catholic atmosphere in which to attend Mass, they should do so.  But if it comes down to "Go to sspx" or "stay at home and miss mass" I think going to an sspx mass is the only option.  The graces God will bestow on you and your family are COUNTLESS.  The Mass is THE prayer of the Church.  It's merits are PRICELESS.  

God knows what one may go through to attend His Mass.  He will bless you for your sacrifices, even if you endure persecution to get there, or afterwards...