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Author Topic: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo  (Read 9700 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 05:33:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 22, 2018, 03:23:07 PM
    1. Yes, that is exactly the Catholic position which you are denying by your "tolerant" attitude: it IS sinful to run a library knowing that the books contain many errors and sins. And in allowing and providing these bad books, you DO become guilty of the errors and sins of others. As Our Lord said, you are either for Him or against Him, and there is no middle way. Ask Pontius Pilate how his "tolerance" worked out for him!

    2. Even if you want to put sedevacantism on the "not erroneous and/or sinful" bookshelf, even then you have a problem here. Apart from the "doctrine" of sedevacantism, we also have their "attitude" to deal with. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The above excerpt from the Archbishop illustrates this nicely (thanks Sean).

    3. Regarding the accusations of "it's good for business", this does not have to be taken as financial business only. I have no doubt the financial rewards of the worldly advertising on CI are minimal, which makes me wonder why you allow all that nonsense on a Catholic forum in the first place. Anyway, you admitted that CI wants to cater for more than the Resistance. It wants to be more "inclusive". But then you should stop pretending that CathInfo is a Resistance forum, because it is not. By the same standard it is a sede forum, or a feeneyite forum, or a flat earth forum, with the Resistance being tolerated as an optional add-on.

    4. I know of several good and strong Resistance faithful who avoid CathInfo like the plague, precisely because of it's "tolerance" policy.

    5. It is not just Sean and me who think like this, but also certain Resistance priests (and bishops if I am not mistaken) who have told you this before. So you're up against them as well, and against the Archbishop. The choice is yours, but so is the responsibility for the damage your "tolerance" does.

    Quote
    Traditional Catholic Forum

    A message board for SSPX, Resistance and other Traditional
    Catholics to discuss news and matters pertaining to the Catholic Faith.
    From the heading of the forum. It is a Traditional Catholic Forum with a focus on the Resistance, in the sense that it is run by R&R members and Matthew routinely bans any non-R&R who behave too dogmatically. By allowing the discussion of different viewpoints on the forum, he offers a means by which err'ing Catholics can be educated and convinced of their errors. While I personally have not become an R&R myself(yet?), I have learned a lot about the Catholic Faith that I hadn't known, and have grown a much greater and more sympathetic understanding of the Resistance. 
    If you ban any opposing viewpoints you preclude the opportunity of correcting and saving those people, and also a forum with no disagreement would just be pointless. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 12:00:38 PM
    Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):

    [He understood the division sedes inevitably and invariably cause...just as they do here on CI, and did not seem to feel the same need to give the sedes a public platform]:

    Nice selective "point in time" snapshot in an attempt to characterize Archbishop Lefebvre.  In point of fact, it's well known that the Archbishop was very optimistic after the election of Karol Wojtyla ... as a change from the hostile Montini regime.

    But at the time of Assisi, the Archbishop turned back the other way and speculated publicly that he might have to go sedevacantist as a result of that blasphemy.

    It's very well known that the Archbishop went back and forth on this question, from being against it but tolerating it (I do not say he is not the pope but do not say that you cannot say he's not the pope) to being against it (here) to being THIS close to publicly embracing it at the time of Assisi.  At one point he simply said that he was not YET ready to go with it in public ... implying that he was very seriously considering it.

    Anyone wishing to get a true picture of how the Archbishop felt about this issue should read the following:
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    So please don't be selective about facts in order to construct a false narrative in support of your agenda.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 05:58:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 22, 2018, 05:53:35 PM
    Nice selective "point in time" snapshot in an attempt to characterize Archbishop Lefebvre.  In point of fact, it's well known that the Archbishop was very optimistic after the election of Karol Wojtyla ... as a change from the hostile Montini regime.

    But at the time of Assisi, the Archbishop turned back the other way and speculated publicly that he might have to go sedevacantist as a result of that blasphemy.

    It's very well known that the Archbishop went back and forth on this question, from being against it but tolerating it (I do not say he is not the pope but do not say that you cannot say he's not the pope) to being against it (here) to being THIS close to publicly embracing it at the time of Assisi.  At one point he simply said that he was not YET ready to go with it in public ... implying that he was very seriously considering it.

    Anyone wishing to get a true picture of how the Archbishop felt about this issue should read the following:
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    So please don't be selective about facts in order to construct a false narrative in support of your agenda.

    Pfffft....

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    Archbishop Lefebvre opposed sedevacantism both before AND after Assisi, and most importantly, he (unlike you) never considered himself competent to judgee in the matter (i.e., He said the CHURCH might someday judge)...not that disgruntled laymen might take it upon themselves to judge here and now.

    That's the part you always conveniently "miss."
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 06:00:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 22, 2018, 05:59:01 PM
    Samuel was no doubt prompted to write on my account ... since he directly addressed the same sentiments to me.

    So is Father Chazal no longer part of "The Resistance"? ... because my position most directly aligns with his.  I am not a pure sedevacantist and have been attacked by dogmatic sedevacantists but I am also not R&R.  The Angelus published an article of mine in 1995 called "Pope-Sifting:  Difficulties with Sedevacantism" ... without my knowledge or prior consent (but that's a long story).  I agree also with Father Ringrose.  Father Ringrose and Father Chazal were two of the original Resistance members.  But in agreeing with these two I am suddenly anti-Resistance?

    Are you a solipsist?

    If you lie and pretend Fr. Chazal endorses your opinion often enough, someone might believe it?

    And if Fr. Chazal shall repeatedly deny it, well, it just proves you are right?

    You are delusional.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #19 on: April 22, 2018, 06:09:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 22, 2018, 06:08:01 PM
    Well, since you continue to lie and to distort, you leave me no choice but to cite some of the quotations from that link.

    Yes, in one quote, he says the Church might decide this some day.  In either case, that means that he was personally IN DOUBT and considered it a possibility.  And leaving it to the Church to decide formally lines up, again, with Father Chazal.

    But, to expose your lie:
    Notice that he says that "for 20 years" ... since 1966? ... he and +de Castro Mayer preferred to WAIT.

    Archbishop Lefebvre did not have a single monolithic position on the issue that can be represented by your selective citation.  You're simply not an honest person but are driven by your agenda.
    I will respond on the thread you are afraid to participate in
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 06:12:49 PM »
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    • I asked the sspx priest today if Francis is still pope.  He responded by making a gesture of doubt and said he is not catholic.  To me you have the sede position and you have the position that a non catholic is your pope and head of the Church of Christ 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 08:50:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 22, 2018, 12:00:38 PM
    Comment: Unlike Archbishop Lefebvre, Matthew has no qualms about "bringing the wolf into the sheepfold."
    This comment implies that sedevacantists are not part of the sheepfold.  Sean, are sedes Catholic?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 09:25:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 22, 2018, 03:23:07 PM
    2. Even if you want to put sedevacantism on the "not erroneous and/or sinful" bookshelf, even then you have a problem here. Apart from the "doctrine" of sedevacantism, we also have their "attitude" to deal with. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The above excerpt from the Archbishop illustrates this nicely (thanks Sean).

    :laugh1:
    You mean like the dogmatic sedeplenist, anti-sedevacantist attitude displayed by certain members here?  
       
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #23 on: April 22, 2018, 09:31:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 08:50:34 PM
    This comment implies that sedevacantists are not part of the sheepfold.  Sean, are sedes Catholic?
    Don’t expect an answer from the Grand Poobah.  You are too lowly for him to waste any time on you.  He is too busy being the top theologian for the resistance.  And since you are obviously a dogmatic sede (we believe that theoretically it is possible that non-dogmatic sedes exist but we have never run across one in the wild), we shan’t waste any of our valuable time trying to convert you to the true religion headed up by our esteemed Pope Francis, whose portrait adorns our chapels and who we are subject to as evidenced by our naming him in the canon of our Masses even if it is true that we systematically reject his authority over us in every imaginable way.  If you even think there might be something wrong with our position, you are not Catholic, unless, of course, you attend a Novus Ordo Mass (which is harmful for you), in which case, you are indubitably Catholic. Capish?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #24 on: April 22, 2018, 10:02:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 22, 2018, 09:31:03 PM
    Don’t expect an answer from the Grand Poobah.  You are too lowly for him to waste any time on you.  He is too busy being the top theologian for the resistance.  And since you are obviously a dogmatic sede (we believe that theoretically it is possible that non-dogmatic sedes exist but we have never run across one in the wild), we shan’t waste any of our valuable time trying to convert you to the true religion headed up by our esteemed Pope Francis, whose portrait adorns our chapels and who we are subject to as evidenced by our naming him in the canon of our Masses even if it is true that we systematically reject his authority over us in every imaginable way.  If you even think there might be something wrong with our position, you are not Catholic, unless, of course, you attend a Novus Ordo Mass (which is harmful for you), in which case, you are indubitably Catholic. Capish?
    Sean will not come out and say that sedes are not Catholic. That would make his dogmatic position clear.  It would also contradict Matthew's position regarding sedes (well, most of them anyway).  Just as dogmatic sedevacantists get the boot here, dogmatic sedeplenists should get the boot here as well.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 09:49:23 AM »
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    • This is SSPXism in full flower. It is obsessed with sedevacantists, (or "feeneyites) and relatively speaking matter of fact about the heresies which are rampant in the heirarchy and which issue from the papal hotel.  They fail to see their own Liberalism in play.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #26 on: April 23, 2018, 10:19:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on April 23, 2018, 12:20:39 AM
    That's why there are about 3 - 4 anti-sedevacantist threads going on in CI at the moment.  ::)

    Oh, so you Sedes are only defending yourselves, right? You are "victims" of the terrible R&R supporters, Poor things!

    That's why you all continually disparage +ABL. So that you can defend sedeism. What priest of the SSPX, in in considering leaving the SSPX because of the changes, would consider the Resistance after viewing this forum? Very few , I think. You've done your work very well. Along with the other sedes.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #27 on: April 23, 2018, 11:02:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 23, 2018, 10:19:29 AM
    That's why you all continually disparage +ABL.

    Very few sedes disparage +ABL.  We disagree with SOME of the things he's said at times, but every sede I know still has a tremendous amount of respect for him and practically tips his hat at the mention of his name.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #28 on: April 23, 2018, 11:29:57 AM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre believed that the Pope was the Pope, and he wrote near the end of his life that he had never ceased repeating that if anyone would separate himself from the Pope, it wouldn't be him. You seem unable to make a distinction between holding for the possibility that in the future, a pope would be declared not a pope by his successor. That's a possibility (among others).

    The Archbishop believed that the Pope was the Pope. He also believed that we should not follow him in his Modernist errors. That's recognizing the pope, but resisting his errors.

    You can make this all about +ABL's supposed sede beliefs. But he wasn't a sede. Far from it.

    Debating with sedes is futile, because you all are NOT honest. 

    It's like the Catholic Answers forum. They are tolerant too, of all kinds of ridiculous views that aren't Catholic. I finally gave up trying to reason with modernists and Protestants there. It's the same with sedes here. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #29 on: April 23, 2018, 11:59:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 23, 2018, 11:06:52 AM
    You continually attack R&R. Are you not aware that +ABL was R&R?

    Other sedes here do attack +ABL.

    This is an anti-R&R forum. You will now say that no one here is anti-R&R, right? Will you now insist that you have never said anything against R&R? Because that's how the sede mentality works. Lie and deny.
    Disagreeing with a viewpoint is not the same as attacking a man who held it, especially one who held it in a very different time.

    Of course, you wouldn't know anything about arguing viewpoints. All you do on this site is constantly spew ad hominem attacks, yelling sede this sede that, instead of ever actually defending your own viewpoints or refuting the opposing ones. 
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