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Offline Matthew

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  • Yesterday, Samuel got upset with the presence of non-Resistance supporters (sedevacantists in particular) on CathInfo. He contacted me by e-mail as well as posted on the forum about this.

    Here is a slightly edited version of my response:


    Quote
    My disagreement with you is your definition of "evil".
     
     We're talking about the Crisis in the Church. Sure, I prefer the Resistance position above all others, but many other positions exist as well, as you know all too well. What are we to think of THE CATHOLICS holding all those other positions? That they are not Catholic? God forbid that I should ever be so blind, proud, or rash.
     
     There is massive confusion in the Church ("Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be dispersed") and CathInfo is the place to discuss and work out that confusion.
     
     Also, I would say that CathInfo predates the Resistance by 6 years, and it might outlive it!  CathInfo has been in business for 12 years. How many Traditional "works" live that long? CathInfo's first loyalty is to the TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT (a.k.a. "the Catholic Faith") which must always exist until the end of the world. I can't say that the Resistance is equal to the Catholic Faith itself -- otherwise I make the same mistake as some dogmatic sedevacantists, or "conservative Catholics", that my position is the only one, and everyone else is going to Hell (unless they're invincibly ignorant, of course! I have to laugh every time someone gives that "out" for non-sedevacantist salvation, because people like us can hardly cling to an ignorance defense.)
     
     The problem is that the Resistance is extremely tiny right now. Think about it: anyone with simplistic thinking or strong emotion (emotion stronger than reasoning ability) is already sedevacantist. Almost all of those who are more prudent, educated, circumspect, practical minded, etc. went with the SSPX (a thin sliver of these educated, prudent, non-hothead types became sedevacantist -- these are the sedevacantists you find on CathInfo, for the most part). But the majority of these SSPX Catholics, because of their prudence, practical considerations, etc. are sticking with the SSPX (place for Mass on Sunday, school for kids, wife can't homeschool, etc.) At least one man with a Resistance-themed blog is still attending SSPX, for crying out loud. And he knows the full deal about the sellout, Resistance, etc. I'll give him credit for at least supporting Masses of the Resistance 100% of the time they're available. (I'm not speaking about myself -- I don't have a blog, I have a FORUM, and I stopped attending the SSPX in May 2015)
     
     The first rule of success in any business is: define your market. Who are you trying to reach? Our market is a thin sliver of serious minded, integral Catholics, who are principled enough to leave the SSPX and assist at Mass only once a month (on average) and homeschool our children, but not proactive, obsessed with theology (and solving all mysteries/problems), or hotheaded enough to embrace sedevacantism.
     
     That, my friends, is a very thin market!
     
     Matthew
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 09:14:34 AM »
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  • The topic of "why is the Resistance so small" is a large one, and one short email can't do it justice. So I at least need to write a quick followup (since I don't have time for a book)

    Take the group "Catholic" -- the majority are Novus Ordo, some shouldn't even be called Catholic (because they would actually reject the Catholic Faith if someone were to corner them and confront them about Church teaching, and the falseness of Vatican II) and a thin sliver of the whole are loosely traditional.

    From that loosely traditional group, you have a bunch who think you need Roman permission to attend a Tridentine Mass -- they depart for the FSSP and other Indult groups.

    You are left with Traditional Catholics. How many of them spend much time and energy on "church stuff" outside of getting ready for Mass on Sunday morning, attending Mass, and driving home? I think some Catholics believe that anything more would be "extreme", "overdoing it", being a "holy roller", or "if I'm going to go that far, I should have been a priest". I hate to say it, but only a thin remnant of the Traditional Catholic remnant expend any time or energy in reading, discussing, understanding the position, or really CARING AT ALL about matters of Faith.

    You are left with a smaller subset of Integral (7 day a week) Traditional Catholics who not only consider themselves Catholic, but Catholicism would also qualify as a main hobby, insofar as they spend a lot of their free money and/or time on matters related to it (study, discussion, reading, volunteering, etc.) Everyone in this group develops principles (leading to favorite positions, favorite groups) due to their intense INTEREST and CARING about the subject.

    But in this group of serious, Integral Trads, you still have large variations in terms of education, intelligence, strength of emotions, personal experience, and accidents of location or chance (I met a great priest with the SSPV...)

    Some in this group decide (or "feel") that sedevacantism is the only way.

    The rest of the group, getting pretty small by this point, decide with the more cautious, balanced (some would say prudent) Recognize and Resist position.

    Now in days of yore, this would be the SSPX. But today, the SSPX is visibly losing it, which necessitates the creation of the Resistance or continuation of the old SSPX position. But how many SSPX attendees have actually left and attached themselves firmly to the Resistance? At my chapel (San Antonio, chapel dating back to 1975, population somewhere between 250 to 300) it's just my family that left -- unless you count 1 additional family that went Pfeifferite. One couple has started coming regularly to the last several (Bp. Zendejas) Masses here, so I'll give them credit at least for supporting the Resistance. There are a few other individuals/families which come to the Resistance chapel "part time", but they all still attend the SSPX.

    At least 8 vehicles/famlies have left the San Antonio SSPX chapel to join the Indult, and let me point out this isn't one of those awesome-sermon-giving FSSP priests you may have heard about. No, this is INDULT, said by older priests who aren't very good at it. One of the priests there (no longer there) dabbled in the Charismatic movement as well as the Latin Mass. We're talking about a shared facility, too -- the same building is used for Novus Ordo (with particles -- or Particles -- of Communion in the Hand all over the floor)

    When you consider all the obstacles -- the gauntlet -- that a Catholic has to run in order to arrive at the Resistance position, it boggles the mind.

    Dimond Brothers
    SSPX "obedience", pro-modern Rome, pro-accord propaganda
    1962 Missale vs. 1954
    Una Cum issue -- to mention the Pope during the Canon or not?
    Novus Ordo Watch and other Sede sites
    Other dogmatic, schismatic sedevacantists on the Net (Pope Michael, etc.)
    Indult groups in every major city "we have to obey the Pope"
    Pfeiffer cult

    That last item is of particular note: of all those SSPX Catholics who "woke up" to the Crisis in the SSPX, how many of them went with Fr. Pfeiffer? Keep in mind that Fr. Pfeiffer was a Resistance pioneer. The most alert and awake SSPXers would have had no other choice if they wanted to resist the new SSPX orientation back in 2012 or 2013. Now it's true that some or many (most?) of these have since left Fr. Pfeiffer and joined the mainstream, worldwide Resistance under the 4 faithful bishops. But a lot of the principled, especially emotional, ones stuck with Fr. Pfeiffer to the present day. Even those who aren't 100% emotion might be convinced by Fr. Pfeiffer -- cult leaders are often very convincing in person, and that includes Fr. P. Catholics are naturally very hesitant to believe a priest could lie to them. So that also takes a noticeable number away from the main Resistance population.

    Long story short, serious minded Catholics are likely to do research, form strong opinions, and many of those opinions are going to conflict and go different directions. It's also hard to give credit to your opponents without implicitly admitting that you might be wrong. If you give credit to Sedevacantists for example, then why? Is it because you want to give credit to those who fail to respect the Pope? Of course not. Or if it's because they are holding the true position, then you would obviously be holding an INCORRECT position, since yours is in conflict with theirs. So when I give any credit/respect to the Sedes, either I'm giving aid to enemies of the Catholic Pope, or I'm admitting I'm wrong. See the problem?

    Of course I would offer a TERTIUM DATUR (a third option to solve the dilemma) -- that both sides can be of good will, but the Crisis is so confusing that we can't know for certain who is right. So we respect each other as Catholics even as we disagree with how to deal with (sometimes important) elements of the Crisis.

    Matthew
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 09:27:21 AM »
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  • If a group of 4 men were lost in the deep woods, trying to survive, not having perfect information about their situation (distance to nearest town, location of any other people in the area, etc.)
    there might be disagreement about the best course of action.

    Some might want to head north, some might want to head east, some might want to stay put and wait for a rescue team. Can the person who wants to head West accuse the man who wants to head North of bad will, or wanting to die? There is confusion and lack of full information; they all just want to survive, but they might have different ideas about how to best accomplish that.

    How this applies to the Crisis in the Church should be obvious.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »
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  • these are very confusing and baffling times to live in indeed. Even just being a Catholic, never mind a good Catholic, these days is near impossible. I long for the days when you could just trust the Clergy and the Church, before all these Vatican 2 shenanigans. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 11:22:52 AM »
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  • Some ex-Pfeiffer people went FSSP.


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 11:23:08 AM »
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  • When one refuses to tolerate points of view that do not agree with the theology of thier particular sect and even go further to characterizing other Catholics as evil for this reason, well what can be said?

    We are living in the time when all men have become thier own authority and feel free to interpret the Church's taeching to conform to their own ideas.  R&R was the Archbishop's emergency idea to deal with a crisis which had not yet shown its true nature. It has now been adopted as a permanent way of being for most of the mainstream traditional movement and indult Catholics.  

    It is not the Theology of the Church. On this scale and for this long, it is unheard of. Neither is sedevacantism or any other lesser derivitive.  They are all theorys and they have contributed to the fragmenting of the remnants of Catholicism.

    For one theory to be right, all others have to be wrong.  There are generally speaking no uncompromised clergy left who have not been affected by modern cultures, theological modernities, or this crisis as a whole. and you do have to be carefull who you follow and what demands that makes on your Faith.

    It is hard to see the Faith of Traditional Catholics enduring and holding when things get worse and the Mass and sacraments be come scarce or non-existent. Those who will survive it will be those who do not measure their Faith by the integers of this or that sectarian grouping, but rather those who hold the Faith of the Church explicitly and above and outside of partisan interests.

    Eternity is forever, those who fail to grasp the paramount importance of persevering towards that goal will be lost. When giving account of ourselves at the end, we will not be saying, "I am in the resistance, or I was a sedevacantist, but hopefully Lord, I tried to live and die as a follower of Christ. One has nothing to do with the other.

    The sectarian church is yet one more adornment of Vatican II. A most effective tool of Lucifer with which to demoralize and separate Catholics.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 11:34:58 AM »
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  • Of course, I reject Pyronnism.

    However, I believe the Crisis in the Church is a profound mystery that no one (who isn't God's personal counselor) can fully understand, explain, or solve.

    I believe all we can do is keep the Faith and save our souls. If we try too hard to explain away the MYSTERY that is the Crisis we will fall into error (sedevacantism, Conciliarism, etc.)

    Just like those who tried too hard to explain other mysteries of the Faith (Trinity, Incarnation, dual nature of Christ, etc.) ended up in heresy.

    This Crisis has a certain element of mystery; no doubt about it.

    Just like the old, "If you can fully wrap your mind around "god", it isn't God that you are comprehending." likewise, if a person says "the Crisis is cut-and-dried, simple, etc." then he simply doesn't understand the full depth and true nature of the Crisis.

    Matthew



    On 04/22/2018 11:15 AM, Sean Johnson wrote:

    Quote
    Matthew-

    Tell me what you think of this:

    http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/books/Iota_Unum/chp_15.htm#s147

    Semper Idem,
    Sean Johnson
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 11:52:04 AM »
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  • I agree, Matthew and JPaul.  Great posts.  The devil surely knows how to divide and conquer.  He preys on our pride, which leads to disunity and then splits.  Certainly many of these theories matter and should be discussed, but they are far LESS important than we make them.  If more people grasped this, we could be united.  Alas, most of this division starts with the Traditional clergy and filters down to the laity!  May God have mercy on the clergy!  

    We didn't have these problems in the 70s and early 80s because people were just concerned with "catholic basics".  It's hard to fight about the Faith when you're worried about finding a mass.  Then God blessed us with chapels and schools and some level of 'normalcy' to our Faith.  The crisis was averted and we return to bickering and moaning, just like the Israelites of old.  I guess it's human nature but it's pathetic.  And we wonder why God sends us suffering and crisis?  If he didn't, we'd devolve into tribal warfare and eventually cannibalism...


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 12:00:38 PM »
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  • Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):

    [He understood the division sedes inevitably and invariably cause...just as they do here on CI, and did not seem to feel the same need to give the sedes a public platform]:

    ….
    STAY IN A FIRM AND SAFE LINE, TO AVOID AN IRREMEDIABLE EVIL

    I tell you all this, quite simply, because you can cause yourself problems, as I ask myself, by praying wholeheartedly morning and evening, night and day, so that Tradition may return to the Church. The Pope himself will be the most satisfied, the happiest. We can only live with Our Lord and through Our Lord and with the reign of Our Lord and everywhere! everywhere! In the Liturgy, in the social, political, family fields... We can do nothing without Our Lord Jesus Christ!

    You see what I thought I was telling you because we have to stay on a firm line and not get lost. During these difficulties in which we live: one would be tempted, precisely, by extreme solutions and to say "No, no, the Pope is not only liberal, the Pope is heretical! The Pope can probably be more than heretical, so there is no Pope!

    That is not correct. It is not because someone is liberal that he is necessarily heretical and therefore necessarily outside the Church. It is necessary to know how to make the necessary distinctions. This is very important to stay on a safe path, to stay well in the Church.

    Where else would we go? There is no Pope, there are no Cardinals, because, if the Pope was not Pope when he appointed the Cardinals, these Cardinals can no longer appoint a Pope because they are not Cardinals.... and then...? Is an angel from Heaven going to bring us a Pope? This is absurd!

    And not just absurd, dangerous! Because then we may be led to solutions that are really schismatic. Then we'll find the Pope of Palmar de Troya, who is excommunicated, who excommunicated me, who excommunicated the Pope, who excommunicated everyone! or others...: we will go to the church of Toulouse..., to the church of Rouen... what do I know... among the Mormons... among the Pentecostals, among the Adventists or something else... Souls are lost...! Still, I don't want that responsibility!

    Perhaps they find me severe in asking these young priests who do not agree with us, with this line that I have always followed, to leave us. But I can't bring the wolf into the sheepfold. It's putting the wolf in the sheepfold, because they divide. It has to be. If, today, I say: "There is a Pope, this Pope, we are not obliged to follow him in everything, even if there may be pastors who are not always good pastors in the complete sense of the word: we are not obliged to follow them in everything. From that to saying there's no Pope, no! So they introduce divisions among the Traditionalists, they introduce divisions in the Church, and from that I do not want, I cannot... while infinitely regretting.

    (The audience applauded at length)

    (Sedevacantist): "Is it okay to ask a question?"

    (Monsignor Lefebvre) : "No, no, no, no"

    (Sedevacantist) "Ah that's not normal"

    (Monsignor Lefebvre) : "No, no, no, no, no, no"

    (Sedevacantist) "It's not normal"

    (Monsignor Lefebvre) : "After the conference, after the conference you come to see me, I never accept..."

    (Sedevacantist continues to interrupt Archbishop Lefebvre)

    (Monsignor Lefebvre) : "I never accept public discussion, I apologize, I never accept public discussion. After the conference, you can come see me."

    (Member of the audience continues to interrupt Bishop Lefebvre)

    (Monsignor Lefebvre): No, please. Please step outside, sir.

    The audience shouts "outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside, outside" (great tumult)

    (Monsignor Lefebvre) : You see, you have an example of this division, it is classic.

    (The audience applauded at length)

    ______________________________

    Comment: Unlike Archbishop Lefebvre, Matthew has no qualms about "bringing the wolf into the sheepfold."
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 12:27:50 PM »
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  • Excerpt from a Conference of Archbishop Lefebvre in Angers, France (1980):
    If you accept the V2 Popes, then why do you pay any heed to an excommunicated man?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 12:31:37 PM »
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  • If you accept the V2 Popes, then why do you pay any heed to an excommunicated man?
    Because his "excommunication" was invalid. +Lefebvre was never even given a trial (and for good reason!)
    That's how it works you know. To actually excommunicate a prelate from the Church, they are given an ecclesiastical trial and found guilty.

    "Ecclesia Dei Afflicta" was a psy-op contrived to confuse the mass of the Faithful, who are largely ignorant of Canon Law and theology.

    Next...

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 12:35:26 PM »
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  • By the way, if some Catholics come to CathInfo and are convinced by Sedevacantism etc. that's not my fault.

    They are going to do their research. CathInfo has just made itself a large, established site full of content, that's all. If CathInfo didn't exist these sedevacantist converts would have just clicked on another link in Google and ended up just as sedevacantist. They were obviously leaning that direction in the first place.

    Certain types are going to be attracted to the simplicity of the sedevacantist solution, as well as the satisfying nature of dismissing the pope completely. Human nature is human nature.

    You can't keep Catholics in a bubble. They are grown men and women with free will.

    That's like saying it's sinful to run a library, because many errors and sins are found in the books within. Nevertheless, when a person sins after getting an idea from a library book, the sin is solely THEIRS ALONE and the librarian, library owner, etc. does not share in that sin.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 12:38:40 PM »
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  • The same Canon Law that made his ordinations invalid, right?
    His suspension was equally invalid. +Lefebvre acted for the greater good of the Church and if you're a Trad you should know that.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 01:00:20 PM »
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  • An excerpt from 1980 is of limited value today. On the first premise, you must first agree with his views on the matter, and the situation has drastically changed, not in the general but, in those factors by which those distinctions that he talks about, should be made.

    And his position has, not by design but its application far beyond its practicle life, has come to cause its own divisions among Traditional Catholics whilst embracing indult and conservative Novus Ordo types.

    More confusion and disarray.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
    « Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 04:41:25 PM »
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  • Quite a few forum members are against what +ABL stood for. Many of them are some version of sede.
    Literally no one here has ever condemned +ABL or what he stood for, even if they disagreed with some of his beliefs. 

     

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