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Author Topic: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo  (Read 14187 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Yesterday, Samuel got upset with the presence of non-Resistance supporters (sedevacantists in particular) on CathInfo. He contacted me by e-mail as well as posted on the forum about this.

Here is a slightly edited version of my response:


Quote
My disagreement with you is your definition of "evil".
 
 We're talking about the Crisis in the Church. Sure, I prefer the Resistance position above all others, but many other positions exist as well, as you know all too well. What are we to think of THE CATHOLICS holding all those other positions? That they are not Catholic? God forbid that I should ever be so blind, proud, or rash.
 
 There is massive confusion in the Church ("Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be dispersed") and CathInfo is the place to discuss and work out that confusion.
 
 Also, I would say that CathInfo predates the Resistance by 6 years, and it might outlive it!  CathInfo has been in business for 12 years. How many Traditional "works" live that long? CathInfo's first loyalty is to the TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT (a.k.a. "the Catholic Faith") which must always exist until the end of the world. I can't say that the Resistance is equal to the Catholic Faith itself -- otherwise I make the same mistake as some dogmatic sedevacantists, or "conservative Catholics", that my position is the only one, and everyone else is going to Hell (unless they're invincibly ignorant, of course! I have to laugh every time someone gives that "out" for non-sedevacantist salvation, because people like us can hardly cling to an ignorance defense.)
 
 The problem is that the Resistance is extremely tiny right now. Think about it: anyone with simplistic thinking or strong emotion (emotion stronger than reasoning ability) is already sedevacantist. Almost all of those who are more prudent, educated, circuмspect, practical minded, etc. went with the SSPX (a thin sliver of these educated, prudent, non-hothead types became sedevacantist -- these are the sedevacantists you find on CathInfo, for the most part). But the majority of these SSPX Catholics, because of their prudence, practical considerations, etc. are sticking with the SSPX (place for Mass on Sunday, school for kids, wife can't homeschool, etc.) At least one man with a Resistance-themed blog is still attending SSPX, for crying out loud. And he knows the full deal about the sellout, Resistance, etc. I'll give him credit for at least supporting Masses of the Resistance 100% of the time they're available. (I'm not speaking about myself -- I don't have a blog, I have a FORUM, and I stopped attending the SSPX in May 2015)
 
 The first rule of success in any business is: define your market. Who are you trying to reach? Our market is a thin sliver of serious minded, integral Catholics, who are principled enough to leave the SSPX and assist at Mass only once a month (on average) and homeschool our children, but not proactive, obsessed with theology (and solving all mysteries/problems), or hotheaded enough to embrace sedevacantism.
 
 That, my friends, is a very thin market!
 
 Matthew

Offline Matthew

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 09:14:34 AM »
The topic of "why is the Resistance so small" is a large one, and one short email can't do it justice. So I at least need to write a quick followup (since I don't have time for a book)

Take the group "Catholic" -- the majority are Novus Ordo, some shouldn't even be called Catholic (because they would actually reject the Catholic Faith if someone were to corner them and confront them about Church teaching, and the falseness of Vatican II) and a thin sliver of the whole are loosely traditional.

From that loosely traditional group, you have a bunch who think you need Roman permission to attend a Tridentine Mass -- they depart for the FSSP and other Indult groups.

You are left with Traditional Catholics. How many of them spend much time and energy on "church stuff" outside of getting ready for Mass on Sunday morning, attending Mass, and driving home? I think some Catholics believe that anything more would be "extreme", "overdoing it", being a "holy roller", or "if I'm going to go that far, I should have been a priest". I hate to say it, but only a thin remnant of the Traditional Catholic remnant expend any time or energy in reading, discussing, understanding the position, or really CARING AT ALL about matters of Faith.

You are left with a smaller subset of Integral (7 day a week) Traditional Catholics who not only consider themselves Catholic, but Catholicism would also qualify as a main hobby, insofar as they spend a lot of their free money and/or time on matters related to it (study, discussion, reading, volunteering, etc.) Everyone in this group develops principles (leading to favorite positions, favorite groups) due to their intense INTEREST and CARING about the subject.

But in this group of serious, Integral Trads, you still have large variations in terms of education, intelligence, strength of emotions, personal experience, and accidents of location or chance (I met a great priest with the SSPV...)

Some in this group decide (or "feel") that sedevacantism is the only way.

The rest of the group, getting pretty small by this point, decide with the more cautious, balanced (some would say prudent) Recognize and Resist position.

Now in days of yore, this would be the SSPX. But today, the SSPX is visibly losing it, which necessitates the creation of the Resistance or continuation of the old SSPX position. But how many SSPX attendees have actually left and attached themselves firmly to the Resistance? At my chapel (San Antonio, chapel dating back to 1975, population somewhere between 250 to 300) it's just my family that left -- unless you count 1 additional family that went Pfeifferite. One couple has started coming regularly to the last several (Bp. Zendejas) Masses here, so I'll give them credit at least for supporting the Resistance. There are a few other individuals/families which come to the Resistance chapel "part time", but they all still attend the SSPX.

At least 8 vehicles/famlies have left the San Antonio SSPX chapel to join the Indult, and let me point out this isn't one of those awesome-sermon-giving FSSP priests you may have heard about. No, this is INDULT, said by older priests who aren't very good at it. One of the priests there (no longer there) dabbled in the Charismatic movement as well as the Latin Mass. We're talking about a shared facility, too -- the same building is used for Novus Ordo (with particles -- or Particles -- of Communion in the Hand all over the floor)

When you consider all the obstacles -- the gauntlet -- that a Catholic has to run in order to arrive at the Resistance position, it boggles the mind.

Dimond Brothers
SSPX "obedience", pro-modern Rome, pro-accord propaganda
1962 Missale vs. 1954
Una cuм issue -- to mention the Pope during the Canon or not?
Novus Ordo Watch and other Sede sites
Other dogmatic, schismatic sedevacantists on the Net (Pope Michael, etc.)
Indult groups in every major city "we have to obey the Pope"
Pfeiffer cult

That last item is of particular note: of all those SSPX Catholics who "woke up" to the Crisis in the SSPX, how many of them went with Fr. Pfeiffer? Keep in mind that Fr. Pfeiffer was a Resistance pioneer. The most alert and awake SSPXers would have had no other choice if they wanted to resist the new SSPX orientation back in 2012 or 2013. Now it's true that some or many (most?) of these have since left Fr. Pfeiffer and joined the mainstream, worldwide Resistance under the 4 faithful bishops. But a lot of the principled, especially emotional, ones stuck with Fr. Pfeiffer to the present day. Even those who aren't 100% emotion might be convinced by Fr. Pfeiffer -- cult leaders are often very convincing in person, and that includes Fr. P. Catholics are naturally very hesitant to believe a priest could lie to them. So that also takes a noticeable number away from the main Resistance population.

Long story short, serious minded Catholics are likely to do research, form strong opinions, and many of those opinions are going to conflict and go different directions. It's also hard to give credit to your opponents without implicitly admitting that you might be wrong. If you give credit to Sedevacantists for example, then why? Is it because you want to give credit to those who fail to respect the Pope? Of course not. Or if it's because they are holding the true position, then you would obviously be holding an INCORRECT position, since yours is in conflict with theirs. So when I give any credit/respect to the Sedes, either I'm giving aid to enemies of the Catholic Pope, or I'm admitting I'm wrong. See the problem?

Of course I would offer a TERTIUM DATUR (a third option to solve the dilemma) -- that both sides can be of good will, but the Crisis is so confusing that we can't know for certain who is right. So we respect each other as Catholics even as we disagree with how to deal with (sometimes important) elements of the Crisis.

Matthew


Offline Matthew

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Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 09:27:21 AM »
If a group of 4 men were lost in the deep woods, trying to survive, not having perfect information about their situation (distance to nearest town, location of any other people in the area, etc.)
there might be disagreement about the best course of action.

Some might want to head north, some might want to head east, some might want to stay put and wait for a rescue team. Can the person who wants to head West accuse the man who wants to head North of bad will, or wanting to die? There is confusion and lack of full information; they all just want to survive, but they might have different ideas about how to best accomplish that.

How this applies to the Crisis in the Church should be obvious.

Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »
these are very confusing and baffling times to live in indeed. Even just being a Catholic, never mind a good Catholic, these days is near impossible. I long for the days when you could just trust the Clergy and the Church, before all these Vatican 2 shenanigans. 

Re: To those frustrated with non-Resistance Catholics on CathInfo
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 11:22:52 AM »
Some ex-Pfeiffer people went FSSP.