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Author Topic: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius  (Read 2230 times)

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Offline Banezian

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Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 12:09:47 PM »
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  • Oh, by the way, Banezian, since you mentioned that you're studying Classics.

    I took 4 years of Latin and 3 of Greek in High School.

    Then I got a full Classics scholarship to Loyola University of Chicago.  I graduated with double major in Greek and Latin, and one class short in "Classical Civilization" (because I left after 3 years to enter St. Thomas Aquinas seminary).  I also had minors in Philosophy, Theology, and Mathematics.

    After I left the seminary, I got a full ride to The Catholic University of America (based on my GRE scores), and did all the coursework necessary for the Ph.D. in Greek and Latin.  I went there because of the emphasis on Patristics (at least through the M.A. level).  Unfortunately, the exam requirements were so onerous that I never finished the degree.  You basically had to test on a reading list that was twice as large as the typical ones because you had an entire Patristic list in addition to a Classical list that was just as big as at most other Classics programs.
    Well I go to Catholic University right now
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #16 on: October 24, 2018, 12:09:56 PM »
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  • That doesn’t apply. We surely still have living Cardinals, even ones who are largely orthodox like Burke.

    Look into taking some logic courses at University.  Of course this applies.  You stated that if there were no Pope or Cardinals, the Church is finished and you'd go become Orthodox.  Bellarmine posits the situation where there's no Pope and all the Cardinals have "perished simultaneously."  Obviously this applies to your argument.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #17 on: October 24, 2018, 12:11:48 PM »
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  • That it COULD occur may be the case in an extreme situation ( where all the Cardinals die for example) but to assume that we are at that point now is ridiculous.
    .
    Well let's not act as though sedevacantists all just boldly, without thinking about it, assume that we're in that situation.  Maybe they're wrong, but it's not like they've never provided reasons for their conclusion. 
    .

    Quote
    If sedes do assume we are at that point, then the logical step is for the sede bishops to go ahead and elect their own Pope. Why won’t they?  This reminds me of a conversation I had with Fr. Peek a few months ago. He rightly pointed out that Sedevacantism is a “dead-end” position. If it’s true, where does one go from there? Sedeprivationism can at least give a coherent answer and an idea for the future. 
    .
    Fr. Peek is a good and holy priest and I would agree that it is a "dead end" position if one thinks that crisis positions are judged by their utility.  Sedevacantism, however, does not purport to provide a "way out" of the crisis except to the degree that it correctly identifies the problem.  Which, I'm sure you would agree, is fundamentally necessary to solving the problem.  You won't recover from cancer if you first don't realize you have it. 
    .
    Regarding sedevacantists not electing a pope, this is a good question and I once thought the lack of such activity was something of a "divine sign" that their position was illegitimate.  Ask different sedevacantists and you'll get different reasons, but fundamentally (and truly) the reason is that they don't have the authority to.  So who does?  Well, that's the question.  The "real" crisis in the Church and the real mystery isn't over whether or not the New Mass is legitimate (it isn't) or even over whether or not Vatican II was legitimate (it wasn't).  It's a mystery of authority.  Who and where are the Catholic hierarchy?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #18 on: October 24, 2018, 12:18:49 PM »
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  • Well I go to Catholic University right now

    Undergraduate?  Small world.  Kligshirn, Petruccione, and McCarthy are the only ones still around from my days (just did a quick lookup).  Watch your back (literally) with Petruccione.  Maybe you know what I mean.  I used to work most closely with Mantello, but I see that he's "Emeritus" now.  I was there from 1993-1996.  Stayed around through 1997 teaching Latin full time in the Arlington public schools.  Then decided I needed a better way to support a family.  I wonder if they'd still let me sit for the exams even though my coursework was 20+ years ago now.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #19 on: October 24, 2018, 12:18:58 PM »
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  • Look into taking some logic courses at University.  Of course this applies.  You stated that if there were no Pope or Cardinals, the Church is finished and you'd go become Orthodox.  Bellarmine posits the situation where there's no Pope and all the Cardinals have "perished simultaneously."  Obviously this applies to your argument.
    I was saying it doesn’t apply to the current situation. As far as my argument Bellarmine is speculating here( as all of them were) and a layman is not the one who should be judging whether we are in this situation or not.
    The sedes I oppose will argue something like this. We have no Pope and no Cardinals, and we have been a in an interregnum since Pius XII died. If we have been without a Pope and Cardinals for 60 years, the Church is dead. The people who believe this ought to have their bishops elect a Pope
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #20 on: October 24, 2018, 12:22:42 PM »
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  • This reminds me of a conversation I had with Fr. Peek a few months ago. He rightly pointed out that Sedevacantism is a “dead-end” position. If it’s true, where does one go from there? Sedeprivationism can at least give a coherent answer and an idea for the future.  

    I agree with the criticisms of sedevacantism.  But R&R also entails the defection of the Church.  What good is the hierarchy if they can lead the entire Church into error?  So what if they're still around if the Magisterium has been corrupted?  The Church cannot defect either materially nor formally (in her mission).  Sedeprivationism, or some variant thereof, is the only answer.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #21 on: October 24, 2018, 12:24:05 PM »
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  • I was saying it doesn’t apply to the current situation. 

    That's your opinion.  You're begging the question here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #22 on: October 24, 2018, 12:26:23 PM »
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  • We have no Pope and no Cardinals, and we have been a in an interregnum since Pius XII died. If we have been without a Pope and Cardinals for 60 years, the Church is dead.

    And if for 60 years we've had an unreliable Magisterium, thoroughly corrupted and contaminaed with error, and a Universal Discipline, Rite of Mass, that displeases God, then how is the Church not "dead"?


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #23 on: October 24, 2018, 12:29:31 PM »
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  • And if for 60 years we've had an unreliable Magisterium, thoroughly corrupted and contaminaed with error, and a Universal Discipline, Rite of Mass, that displeases God, then how is the Church not "dead"?
    http://sspx.org/en/clear-ideas-popes-infallible-magisterium
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #24 on: October 24, 2018, 12:49:36 PM »
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  • http://sspx.org/en/clear-ideas-popes-infallible-magisterium
    .
    The author of the article plays switcheroo with the pope's ordinary magisterium and the ordinary magisterium (i.e., what the world's bishops are all teaching in union with the pope through the usual teaching methods of catechisms, pastoral letters, etc.).  
    .
    The "problem" with the magisterium in the R&R view is that the Church's usual way of teaching-- the proximate way of teaching, which all Catholics are exposed to on a day to day, week to week, year to year, generation to generation basis-- is liable to err in universal scope so long as the Church doesn't solemnly define error the once-in-a-hundred years she gets convened in solemn council.  
    .
    If you are sensitive to the Church as a hierarchical institution, you should find abhorrent the idea that Catholics have to regularly and habitually hop over their superiors if they want to learn what Catholic teaching is.  R&R essentially purports that this is the way it's supposed to work.  Catholics around the world should be prepared to vet and reject the teachings of their bishop (and their neighbors bishop, and their neighbors' neighbors' bishop, etc.) and read Denzinger.
    .
    At any rate, there's loads of theological material to make such a notion worthy of resentment.  Vatican I most notably, but also Bellarmine are both very clear that whatever is taught universally (i.e., by everyone in union with the pope right now) is protected from error.  It's infallible.  We can't look at the Church since Vatican II and say that it's ordinary magisterium has been infallible.  I'm sure you agree with that.  But it's supposed to be.  What now?  Sedevacantism (of whatever variety) resolves this theological dilemma by showing that the pope-- the lynchpin of infallibility-- was missing.  No pope, no infallibility.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #25 on: October 24, 2018, 01:09:33 PM »
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  • http://sspx.org/en/clear-ideas-popes-infallible-magisterium

    And I could spam in a link thoroughly debunking this.  It's the wrong question.  We're not talking about what's strictly infallible.  Where talking about a wholesale defection of the Magisterium.  It's one thing for an isolated statement here or there to be in error, quite another for the entire Magisterium to go corrupt and become unreliable.  It's another matter altogether that we are essentially required to break canonical submission with the hierarchy in order to keep the faith, that we cannot submit to the Magisterium without endangering our souls.

    Msgr. Fenton:

    Quote
    To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. 
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.



    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #26 on: October 24, 2018, 05:30:29 PM »
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  • And I could spam in a link thoroughly debunking this.  It's the wrong question.  We're not talking about what's strictly infallible.  Where talking about a wholesale defection of the Magisterium.  It's one thing for an isolated statement here or there to be in error, quite another for the entire Magisterium to go corrupt and become unreliable.  It's another matter altogether that we are essentially required to break canonical submission with the hierarchy in order to keep the faith, that we cannot submit to the Magisterium without endangering our souls.

    Msgr. Fenton:
    We could go on about this forever Lad, but I think you and I agree enough that we don’t need to  quarrel about this. I have nothing against Sedeprivationists as long as they’re not dogmatic about it. The main issue with Sedeprivationism is that individuals judge the Pope as a formal heretic. I don’t think we can do that. I’m sure we agree on most important aspects of the Faith. This is not a topic I particularly enjoy discussing anyway( there are some folks at my parish who go on and on about it) I’m a Classicist and a patristics guy. Discussing Plato, Augustine, or the differences between Eastern and Western Fathers is more down my alley. You don’t take the position I’m criticizing, so there’s no use in going on about it  
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Clarification on earlier thread regarding Fr. Ringrose/St, Athanasius
    « Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 08:32:43 PM »
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  • Just out of curiosity, has anyone on here been to St. Athanasius recently? I’ve never been and have some questions about the parish life. Feel free to PM
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9