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Author Topic: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now  (Read 4332 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2018, 05:33:13 PM »
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  • We are Roman Catholics and nothing else will satisfy.

    Someday we will all be united; these names only continue to separate us and that is not the Will of God.

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #46 on: October 24, 2018, 08:10:22 PM »
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  • We are Roman Catholics and nothing else will satisfy.

    Someday we will all be united; these names only continue to separate us and that is not the Will of God.

    We are Christians.  Some day Prots will cease to exist too and we can reclaim the name Christian without being thought of as a Bible thumper.


    Offline Markus

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #47 on: October 25, 2018, 12:59:31 AM »
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  • I wouldn't worry about it. The anti-Trump "resistance" won't be a thing in a few years. The Catholic Resistance, meanwhile, will continue presumably indefinitely.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #48 on: October 25, 2018, 10:19:11 AM »
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  • As was mentioned previously, the problem is that what you're trying to describe isn't monolithic.  Not only isn't it monolithic, but anyone who isn't already aware of it, is going to find out that it isn't monolithic after just about two minutes of research.  And then they're going to realize that "The Resistance" is just a bunch of no-true-scotsmen.  Not the impression you're going for.  
    .
    The better descriptor is just Catholic, or if needed, traditional Catholic.  If it comes up I just say I'm Catholic.  If it seems expedient, I will say something like "I'm Catholic, but I'm a traditionalist Catholic.  That means that we observe the Catholic faith as it was taught before Vatican II."  
    .
    People seem a little to eager to make sure that people know that "but I'm not like those Catholics."  I "get it," obviously, there's a lot of confusion which gives rise to labels and such, and the labels do have some utility.  But that's all.  We shouldn't be looking at labels (except the label Catholic) as anything other than conventions of utility-- they're not principles.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #49 on: October 25, 2018, 02:28:07 PM »
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  • As was mentioned previously, the problem is that what you're trying to describe isn't monolithic.  Not only isn't it monolithic, but anyone who isn't already aware of it, is going to find out that it isn't monolithic after just about two minutes of research.  And then they're going to realize that "The Resistance" is just a bunch of no-true-scotsmen.  Not the impression you're going for.  
    .
    The better descriptor is just Catholic, or if needed, traditional Catholic.  If it comes up I just say I'm Catholic.  If it seems expedient, I will say something like "I'm Catholic, but I'm a traditionalist Catholic.  That means that we observe the Catholic faith as it was taught before Vatican II."  
    .
    People seem a little to eager to make sure that people know that "but I'm not like those Catholics."  I "get it," obviously, there's a lot of confusion which gives rise to labels and such, and the labels do have some utility.  But that's all.  We shouldn't be looking at labels (except the label Catholic) as anything other than conventions of utility-- they're not principles.
    Yes, we must start referring to us Traditional Catholics as Catholic and give everyone else outside of Tradition the name of heretic or unfaithful Catholic,  or Catholics of good will but in error. 

    This statement above is good, or it can be shorted a bit to "I'm Catholic, but one that observes the Catholic faith as it was taught before Vatican II."  



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #50 on: October 25, 2018, 03:00:46 PM »
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  • I agree.  I say we stick with "Traditional Catholic".  All others are either novus ordo or indult.  As soon as the sspx makes a deal, they'll be indult too.  Really, there's only 2 buckets - those who accept the novus ordo/V2 and the TRUE catholics who do not.

    As far as a legal/formal name for +Williamson and his fellow bishops/priests, they'll have to figure that out. 

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #51 on: October 25, 2018, 03:43:27 PM »
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  • As far as a legal/formal name for +Williamson and his fellow bishops/priests, they'll have to figure that out.
    That's what this whole thread was supposed to be about, a group name, not what we call ourselves as individuals or what we are a part of in the bigger long-term picture.

    Those in the diocese who know that the so called "Resistance" even exists are derisive of it because it shows up on Google maps and other searches as "BRN Associates" or "Miraculous Medal Inc", etc. At least the SSPX shows up as "Church" or even "Catholic Church". B+ & Z+ really need to do something about that. Secondly, those who would potentially be willing to direct their friends there can't because they don't even have an official site. You gotta dig around in the net to find these people. Should you recommend your friends and family go to some shady place claiming to be what public records suggest they probably aren't? Yea... the best you can hope for is people from the SSPX who were deeply involved and now dissatisfied, I don't see any "converts" from the N.O. or Prots or from anywhere else being likely, quite frankly. The few "new faces" I saw once every other month in "the resistance" did not stick around after just one or two tries. Who wants to get into a fringe group right off the bat? A lot need modification to make it work in the long-run.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #52 on: October 25, 2018, 04:31:15 PM »
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  • Agree, to a degree.  In the grand scheme of things, if people don't want to go to a mass because the priest doesn't have a website, then their priorities are really out of whack.  But there's a lot of trads out there whose catholicm is very superficial, as the whole sspx-rome talks prove, and the growing trad-to-indult movement shows.

    The ultimate problem is that +W, +Zendehas, etc aren't communicating/organizing things in the same manner as the sspx did.  There might be a good reason for that, since the sspx's governmental structure led to many problems.  But we'll never know what the reason is until they tell us.

    It sounded like Sean Johnson was really active in helping to organize some Resistance chapel stuff.  If he wasn't involved in a website or something similar (I'm sure he would've been gung-ho about that), then to me, that means that the "leadership" of the Resistance (whoever that is) hasn't given the green light to that action.  Why is that?  Who knows...

    And if they haven't even setup a website, then a new name is probably far down the list of upcoming events.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #53 on: October 25, 2018, 04:57:05 PM »
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  • I agree.  I say we stick with "Traditional Catholic".  All others are either novus ordo or indult.  As soon as the sspx makes a deal, they'll be indult too.  Really, there's only 2 buckets - those who accept the novus ordo/V2 and the TRUE catholics who do not.

    As far as a legal/formal name for +Williamson and his fellow bishops/priests, they'll have to figure that out.
    We are Roman Catholics period, Traditional Roman Catholics if you will, as far as a legal/formal name for your Bishops they should establish an order as we did, C.M.R.I.; of course you will have the problem in that the pope must approve the order.  Strange times we live in, you acknowledge the pope, but he doesn't acknowledge you, 
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #54 on: October 25, 2018, 05:16:38 PM »
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  • We are Roman Catholics period, Traditional Roman Catholics if you will, as far as a legal/formal name for your Bishops they should establish an order as we did, C.M.R.I.; of course you will have the problem in that the pope must approve the order.  Strange times we live in, you acknowledge the pope, but he doesn't acknowledge you,
    That is also part of the problem with the Resistance, they have no recognition form any other group, society, or authority with apostolic valid/aproved descent. There are plenty people out there apparently who question if the "Resistance" bishops are even bishops since W+ did not ask for permission and even against canonical requirements did not have the sufficient number of bishops for his first Episcopal consecration.

    Of course you can argue "but Supplied jurisdiction", but when one seems to be blatantly throwing the Church rule book out the window, it really doesn't sooth the peoples' suspicions of you.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #55 on: October 25, 2018, 05:24:50 PM »
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  • The purpose of the Traditionalist movement is not about “people’s perceptions” or “new Rome’s approval” or “growing membership” - it’s about keeping the Faith and saving one’s soul.  Nothing else matters.  If someday traditional Catholics number in the 100s all across the world and every “conservative” catholic, including every quasi-heretical clergy member says that traditionalism is wrong, it makes no difference.  Truth is not a popularity contest.  Those who want to find the Truth will find it, and stay with it.  Those that don’t want the Truth will use “perception” or “Rome doesn’t approve” to excuse themselves, just like many do already.  


    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #56 on: October 25, 2018, 05:41:03 PM »
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  • The purpose of the Traditionalist movement is not about “people’s perceptions” or “new Rome’s approval” or “growing membership” - it’s about keeping the Faith and saving one’s soul.  Nothing else matters.  If someday traditional Catholics number in the 100s all across the world and every “conservative” catholic, including every quasi-heretical clergy member says that traditionalism is wrong, it makes no difference.  Truth is not a popularity contest.  Those who want to find the Truth will find it, and stay with it.  Those that don’t want the Truth will use “perception” or “Rome doesn’t approve” to excuse themselves, just like many do already.  
    The problem I am seeing with the "Traditionalist Movement" is that it is stagnating, it gets smaller and smaller and the Trads just stick to themselves in their little holes and groups societies or whatever they put themselves together as. They stagnate... where is the apostolic spirit of evangelization? Being "Church Militant" does not mean to squander your faith in an underground bunker where it'll suffocate and die with you, and that is what I'm seeing so far. It's disheartening. They all seem to be on retreat in stead of on the charge or at least steady marching. Cowering and victim mentality does not lead to sparks which cause a fire.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #57 on: October 25, 2018, 05:47:46 PM »
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  • We are Roman Catholics period, Traditional Roman Catholics if you will, as far as a legal/formal name for your Bishops they should establish an order as we did, C.M.R.I.; of course you will have the problem in that the pope must approve the order.  Strange times we live in, you acknowledge the pope, but he doesn't acknowledge you,
    Actually, after rereading this I should mention that they did. It's called the SAJM. The docuмents of which are written in a manner by +Faure in a way as if he has the authority to establish one. Some people see this as schismatic, and frankly I do too. It has shaken my support for them to they point they have almost completely lost it. You can look up the docuмent's for yourself on their site, and I believe you can find a link to it on the site for the Dominican monastery of Avrillé.
    Every position and group out there has its theological or ecclesiological  holes with puzzle pieces that just dont quite fit. 
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #58 on: October 25, 2018, 06:02:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    The problem I am seeing with the "Traditionalist Movement" is that it is stagnating, it gets smaller and smaller and the Trads just stick to themselves in their little holes and groups societies or whatever they put themselves together as. They stagnate... where is the apostolic spirit of evangelization? Being "Church Militant" does not mean to squander your faith in an underground bunker where it'll suffocate and die with you, and that is what I'm seeing so far. It's disheartening. They all seem to be on retreat in stead of on the charge or at least steady marching. Cowering and victim mentality does not lead to sparks which cause a fire.
    Getting smaller and stagnating are 2 different things.  A group can get smaller but also stronger.  Traditionalism is getting stronger, even if it's decreasing in numbers.  Why?

    1.  Because much of the growth in Traditionalism was in the sspx who invited in all manner of "conservative" novus ordo people and they did not A) instruct them in the whys of tradition, so these people don't know why the sspx exists (or tradition in general); all they know is the sspx "prefers the old mass".  The sspx (under +Fellay) did a HORRIBLE job of initiating many people into true catholicism.  Instead, they grew their numbers by accepting people who were interested in the "smells and bells" but that's it.  B) The sspx took their foot off the gas pedal in attacking Modernism and V2, which is the reason they were able to attract the kinds of people mentioned above.

    2.  The "motu" of 2007 has had the effect of "divide and conquer" on the traditionalism movement because A) the millenial generation thinks that the mass is all that matters, at the expense of Truth/Faith, so many of them have left Tradition for the indult.  B) the above mentioned "smells and bell'ers" see the sspx and the indult as very similar, so their outlook on Traditionalism is weak at best.

    I don't see many trads going into a bunker or hiding their Faith.  I see more and more "fake trads" closing their ears and choosing the indult and not wanting to debate why they shouldn't.  If anything, the growth for the future of Tradition is among protestants, not indult/novus ordo catholics (they have compromised, rejected the Faith, and who's to say that their hearts will be open to coming back?  It doesn't happen often, sadly.)

    God has allowed this growing apathy among Trads to test their resolve.  Who will put the Faith above the mass?  Who will stand with Truth in the face of long-suffering and the seemingly never-ending new rome attacks?  Nothing has changed in new rome since the 60s; they are still without the full Faith.  Yet many people have let their guard down and have been lulled to sleep to accept the Trojan Horse of the indult.  11 of the 12 Apostles abandoned Our Lord; yet the one who stayed til the Cross was most loved by Him.  Christ does not need an army to resurrect the Church; all he needs are quality Catholics who are not infected with worldliness and compromise.  Let us all resolve to be, as the marines' slogan says "the few, the proud" to serve Christ and protect Orthodoxy!

    Offline poche

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    Re: Time for a new name? Resistance implies anti-Trump now
    « Reply #59 on: October 25, 2018, 10:29:59 PM »
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  • I agree.  I say we stick with "Traditional Catholic".  All others are either novus ordo or indult.  As soon as the sspx makes a deal, they'll be indult too.  Really, there's only 2 buckets - those who accept the novus ordo/V2 and the TRUE catholics who do not.

    As far as a legal/formal name for +Williamson and his fellow bishops/priests, they'll have to figure that out.
    I too consider myself a Traditional Catholic.