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Author Topic: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful  (Read 7224 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2019, 03:23:25 PM »
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  • I consider every consecration done by a man who believed the Blessed Virgin sent a stranger to fetch him to consecrate some other strangers he had never heard of, and whose only level of introspection in the matter was to request sufficcient time to pack his bag, to be doubtful.

    Consecrating bishops is the most important thing a bishop can do, and he apparently did it with little to no forethought as though he suddenly had an impulse to turn the TV channel.

    To me, that makes the condition of his psyche open to question.

    Could you please answer the question about Mendez?

    To apply your criteria, then you would have to question +William's mental capacity too ... for considering Dawn Marie to have credibly received visions from the Virgin Mary.  Or was it just the act of packing his bag that did it for you?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #46 on: August 26, 2019, 03:27:16 PM »
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  • Consecrating bishops is the most important thing a bishop can do, and he apparently did it with little to no forethought as though he suddenly had an impulse to turn the TV channel.

    You're absolutely making this up.  You have no idea how much forethought went into the consecrations.  He could have been considering the facts all the way down to Palmar and then made up his mind after witnessing the events there.  You have zero proof that he did it with the same forethought as a sudden impulse the turn the channel.  Now you are revealing yourself as intellectually dishonest.

    Before running your mouth constantly, I invite you to dig up and read his autobiography.  In it you will find a very gentle, humble, and completely lucid individual, a faithful Catholic.  You and the SSPV's campaign against him is tantamount to slander.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #47 on: August 26, 2019, 03:30:11 PM »
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  • You're absolutely making this up.  You have no idea how much forethought went into the consecrations.  He could have been considering the facts all the way down to Palmar and then made up his mind after witnessing the events there.  You have zero proof that he did it with the same forethought as a sudden impulse the turn the channel.  Now you are revealing yourself as intellectually dishonest.

    Before running your mouth constantly, I invite you to dig up and read his autobiography.  In it you will find a very gentle, humble, and completely lucid individual, a faithful Catholic.  You and the SSPV's campaign against him is tantamount to slander.
    :fryingpan:

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #48 on: August 26, 2019, 03:31:19 PM »
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  • All known testimony to Thuc's mental state has been positive in his favor.  So I'm not sure why you're citing this.

    You're going on nothing but some behavior.  But behavior has to be a conclusive indicator of a mental incapacity to perform a valid consecration.  Doing an imprudent or strange thing does not rise to that standard.

    Now, if you were to provide testimony from people at the time of some consecrations that at that time he was senile and confused and not sure of who he was, etc. ... that would be compelling.  But for having consecrated some people he should not have?   This is not even close to overturning the presumption that he knew what he was doing when consecrating.

    Oh?

    How do you explain this:

    "Cardinal Jose Castillo Lara and the Mental State of Archbishop Thuc

    Cardinal Lara, former President of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, raised questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc in a way that gave the impression that Thuc's "mental imbalance" was a given fact. He stated quite categorically that Archbishop Thuc was mentally unbalanced, and because of this, his actions - from a canonical point of view - did not have the same consequences as those of Archbishop Lefebvre. For if a man is not mentally competent when he breaks the law, he does not actually incur the penalty because he is not responsible. In a letter to John Beaumont, dated May 26, 1993, on the subject of the consecrations done by Archbishop Lefebvre, Cardinal Lara wrote:

    'Ngo Dinh Thuc represents a pitiable situation, as there is some mental imbalance.8'
    8 Cardinal Jose Castillo Lara, quoted in Fidelity 13 (March 1994), p. 37."


    (See p. 88 here: http://www.congregationofstpiusv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SacredandProfane.pdf)


    or this from the same work, pp. 87-88:


    "Bishop Barthe and the Mental State of Archbishop Thuc

    Bishop Gilles Barthe of the diocese of Frejus-Toulon in France raised questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc. Bishop Barthe concelebrated the New Mass with Thuc on Holy Thursday, April 16, 1981, three weeks before the consecration of Fr. Guerard des Lauriers. He later called into question the validity of Fr. des Lauriers' consecration, as well as that of Fr. Moises Carmona, to whom "Bishop" Dolan traces his orders. His reason had to do with questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc. The concelebration took place on April 16, 1981. The consecration of Fr. des Lauriers was on May 7, 1981. Carmona and Zamora were consecrated on October 17, 1981. The statement of Bishop Barthe questioning the validity of these consecrations was published in La Docuмentation Catholique on February 21, 1982 - No. 1824. In it he said:

    'Certain Catholics are asking me what must be thought of the clandestine ordinations by Monseigneur Ngo Dinh Thuc. Here is that which I can respond:. . .

    I voice the most express reservations about the value [valeur] of these ordinations: because of the person of him who did them. Already one time before, on January 11, 1976, Monseigneur Thuc proceeded to some ordinations of this type at El Palmar de Troya. On order from Rome, the apostolic nuncio of Spain immediately recalled "after attentive examination of the facts relative to the presumed episcopal ordinations" that the consecrating prelate was excommunicated, as well as those ordained themselves. Monseigneur Thuc left Italy where he resided, to come to live in the diocese where we received him fraternally; but I avow that the way in which he explained his "mistake" has never been very clear. It is even less so for the ordinations done in his house at Toulon. It is permitted to ask oneself up to what point he was well aware of the acts which he did and to what point his liberty went. What to think, today, of the affirmations of his regrets and of his promises?7"

    7 Quoted in Rev. William W. Jenkins, The Thuc Consecrations: An Open Appeal To Fr. Donald Sanborn (Oyster Bay, N. Y.: The Society of St. Pius V [1993]), p. 16.


    PS: I notice every time I rebut you, you become the emotional woman Loudestmouth is known for.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #49 on: August 26, 2019, 03:42:52 PM »
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  • Oh?

    How do you explain this:

    "Cardinal Jose Castillo Lara and the Mental State of Archbishop Thuc

    Cardinal Lara, former President of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, raised questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc in a way that gave the impression that Thuc's "mental imbalance" was a given fact. He stated quite categorically that Archbishop Thuc was mentally unbalanced, and because of this, his actions - from a canonical point of view - did not have the same consequences as those of Archbishop Lefebvre. For if a man is not mentally competent when he breaks the law, he does not actually incur the penalty because he is not responsible. In a letter to John Beaumont, dated May 26, 1993, on the subject of the consecrations done by Archbishop Lefebvre, Cardinal Lara wrote:

    'Ngo Dinh Thuc represents a pitiable situation, as there is some mental imbalance.8'
    8 Cardinal Jose Castillo Lara, quoted in Fidelity 13 (March 1994), p. 37."


    (See p. 88 here: http://www.congregationofstpiusv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SacredandProfane.pdf)


    or this from the same work, pp. 87-88:


    "Bishop Barthe and the Mental State of Archbishop Thuc

    Bishop Gilles Barthe of the diocese of Frejus-Toulon in France raised questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc. Bishop Barthe concelebrated the New Mass with Thuc on Holy Thursday, April 16, 1981, three weeks before the consecration of Fr. Guerard des Lauriers. He later called into question the validity of Fr. des Lauriers' consecration, as well as that of Fr. Moises Carmona, to whom "Bishop" Dolan traces his orders. His reason had to do with questions about the mental competence of Archbishop Thuc. The concelebration took place on April 16, 1981. The consecration of Fr. des Lauriers was on May 7, 1981. Carmona and Zamora were consecrated on October 17, 1981. The statement of Bishop Barthe questioning the validity of these consecrations was published in La Docuмentation Catholique on February 21, 1982 - No. 1824. In it he said:

    'Certain Catholics are asking me what must be thought of the clandestine ordinations by Monseigneur Ngo Dinh Thuc. Here is that which I can respond:. . .

    I voice the most express reservations about the value [valeur] of these ordinations: because of the person of him who did them. Already one time before, on January 11, 1976, Monseigneur Thuc proceeded to some ordinations of this type at El Palmar de Troya. On order from Rome, the apostolic nuncio of Spain immediately recalled "after attentive examination of the facts relative to the presumed episcopal ordinations" that the consecrating prelate was excommunicated, as well as those ordained themselves. Monseigneur Thuc left Italy where he resided, to come to live in the diocese where we received him fraternally; but I avow that the way in which he explained his "mistake" has never been very clear. It is even less so for the ordinations done in his house at Toulon. It is permitted to ask oneself up to what point he was well aware of the acts which he did and to what point his liberty went. What to think, today, of the affirmations of his regrets and of his promises?7"

    7 Quoted in Rev. William W. Jenkins, The Thuc Consecrations: An Open Appeal To Fr. Donald Sanborn (Oyster Bay, N. Y.: The Society of St. Pius V [1993]), p. 16.


    PS: I notice every time I rebut you, you become the emotional woman Loudestmouth is known for.

    More witnsses who testify against the mental stability of Thuc (from the same book, pp. 89-90):

    "Fr. Barbara and the Mental State of Archbishop Thuc Fr. Noel Barbara, who published the journal Fortes In Fide, interviewed Archbishop Thuc in March of 1981 and again in January of 1982. Subsequent to these interviews, he suggested three possible answers to the question of whether or not Archbishop Thuc was "in possession of his faculties." Fr. Barbara wrote:

    'The relapse into profanation of the sacrament of order (the latest consecration conferred in a sect was on 24 Sep 1982) and the lack of firmness in his promise not to lapse again make it permissible to ask an essential question. Was this old man, over 85 years of age, in possession of his faculties, did he realize what he was doing in imposing his hands so easily on no matter whom? Was he truly responsible for his acts? There are only three possible answers to this distressing question.

    - No. Thuc was not in possession of all his faculties; he was not responsible and did not incur the penalties provided by the Law. But then the consecrations conferred are not valid, since the consecrator was not in possession of his faculties for the performance of a responsible act.

    -Yes. The consecrator at these consecrations was in full possession of his faculties. The consecrations are valid but consecrator and consecrated have incurred all the penalties provided by the Law and Thuc is truly a scandalous bishop.

    - We do not know with certainty. Perhaps he was in possession of his faculties, and perhaps he was not. That would leave a doubt hovering over the censures incurred, but also over the validity of all these ordinations.10

    10. Rev. Noel Barbara, Burning Questions: Straight Answers (Tours, France: Fortes In Fide [ca. 1983]), Appendix, p. 20
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #50 on: August 26, 2019, 03:49:42 PM »
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  • I make Bishop (?) Kelly's conclusion my own:

    "The preponderance of the evidence, however, suggests that Archbishop Thuc was not responsible for what he did and that he had "not the full use of reason." Thus, the preponderance of the evidence indicates that he was "incapable of administering a Sacrament," as Msgr. Pohle said in The Sacraments, A Dogmatic Treatise. But since we do not know for sure, we cannot say for certain that the Thuc consecrations are invalid. Neither can we say for certain that they are valid. What we can and must say is that they are certainly doubtful as to validity. Therefore, they must be treated in the practical order as if they were certainly invalid, because when it comes to the validity of the Sacraments, it is forbidden to follow a doubtful or even a merely probable course of action. To quote Fr. Davis again:

    'In conferring the Sacraments (as also in [the] Consecration in Mass) it is never allowed to adopt a probable course of action as to validity and to abandon the safer course. The contrary was explicitly condemned by Pope Innocent XI. To do so would be a grievous sin against religion, namely, an act of irreverence towards what Christ our Lord has instituted; it would be a grievous sin against charity, as the recipient would probably be deprived of the graces and effect of the Sacrament; it would be a grievous sin against justice, as the recipient has a right to valid Sacraments, whenever the minister, whether ex officio or not, undertakes to confer a Sacrament. In the necessary Sacraments,12 there is no doubt about the triple sin; in Sacraments that are not necessary, there will always be the grave sacrilege against religion.13

    13.  Henry Davis, S.J., Moral and Pastoral Theology, vol. 3: Sacraments (1), 3d ed., rev. and enl. (London: Sheed & Ward, 1938), p. 27.



    PS: Msgr. Pohle says:

    "The combination of matter and form into a sacramental sign (confectio), and its application to the individual recipient (administratio), . . . require a minister who has the full command of reason. Hence lunatics, children, and others who have not the full use of reason are incapable of administering a Sacrament."

    The Rt. Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohle, Ph.D., D.D., The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise, adapted and ed. Arthur Preuss, 3d, rev. ed., 4 vols. (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1944), vol. 1: 162.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #51 on: August 26, 2019, 04:18:14 PM »
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  • Were these "witnesses" at the consecrations?

    Also, for further reading regarding Archbishop Thuc's "mental state":

    http://www.thucbishops.com/Open_Letter_to_%20Bp_Kelly_FULL.pdf

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #52 on: August 26, 2019, 04:25:37 PM »
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  • Were these "witnesses" at the consecrations?

    You are grasping at straws:

    If they know a bishop is senile, they don't need to be at the consecration to hold it doubtful.

    It is presumed doubtful because of the senility, since the senile cannot confect a sacrament.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #53 on: August 26, 2019, 04:32:11 PM »
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  • You are grasping at straws:

    If they know a bishop is senile, they don't need to be at the consecration to hold it doubtful.

    It is presumed doubtful because of the senility, since the senile cannot confect a sacrament.
    "know"?  Are they doctors?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #54 on: August 26, 2019, 04:36:30 PM »
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  • "know"?  Are they doctors?
    Yes.

    PS: Can I know my Uncle Louie is senile if I am not a doctor?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #55 on: August 26, 2019, 04:43:28 PM »
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  • Yes.

    PS: Can I know my Uncle Louie is senile if I am not a doctor?
    From the link I shared above:

    Your Excellency’s claim that the Thuc consecrations must be considered doubtful because Bp. Thuc may not have been in a mental state sufficient to have the necessary sacramental intention totally leaves out of account the fact that the minimum-necessary intention for conferring a valid sacrament is based on the minimum necessary for a human act, which is an act proceeding from knowledge and free will. “Mental imbalance,” if such should have been the case with Bp. Thuc, does not nearly suffice to prevent one from engaging in a human act. There is no evidence that Bp. Thuc was insane, much less habitually so, and such would have to be proven clinically anyway, as any court of law, ecclesiastical or civil, would require.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #56 on: August 26, 2019, 04:54:50 PM »
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  • From the link I shared above:

    Your Excellency’s claim that the Thuc consecrations must be considered doubtful because Bp. Thuc may not have been in a mental state sufficient to have the necessary sacramental intention totally leaves out of account the fact that the minimum-necessary intention for conferring a valid sacrament is based on the minimum necessary for a human act, which is an act proceeding from knowledge and free will. “Mental imbalance,” if such should have been the case with Bp. Thuc, does not nearly suffice to prevent one from engaging in a human act. There is no evidence that Bp. Thuc was insane, much less habitually so, and such would have to be proven clinically anyway, as any court of law, ecclesiastical or civil, would require.

    The senile do not commit human acts, and consequently, they do not confect sacraments.

    I refer you to Pohle-Preuss above.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #57 on: August 26, 2019, 04:58:30 PM »
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  • You are grasping at straws:

    If they know a bishop is senile, they don't need to be at the consecration to hold it doubtful.

    It is presumed doubtful because of the senility, since the senile cannot confect a sacrament.
    I know (and knew) several people who knew the Archbishop personally. They ALL attest that he was mentally sound and that he celebrated mass perfectly. Anything but sedevacantism, right Sean?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #58 on: August 26, 2019, 05:01:48 PM »
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  • I know (and knew) several people who knew the Archbishop personally. They ALL attest that he was mentally sound and that he celebrated mass perfectly. Anything but sedevacantism, right Sean?

    Damn right, QVD, anything but schismatic, heretical sedevacantism.

    Now back to the topic:

    I don't care if you know 30 people with letters from their mommies who say Thuc was steady as a rock.

    When bishops and cardinals, sedes, and trad priests say he was off kilter, your buddies' opinions don't amount to a hill of beans.

    And I might ask, "Where is your common sense?"  The man flies off at the drop of the hat to go consecrate some strangers becaause some other stranger arrives to tell him the BVM sent him to fetch him to go do some consecrations!?!?

    Sorry but if you can't see that is crazy, I don't think I can help you.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #59 on: August 26, 2019, 05:05:33 PM »
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  • Damn right, QVD, anything but schismatic, heretical sedevacantism.

    Now back to the topic:

    I don't care if you know 30 people with letters from their mommies who say Thuc was steady as a rock.

    When bishops and cardinals, sedes, and trad priests say he was off kilter, your buddies' opinions don't amount to a hill of beans.
    So far the only evidence of senility you've provided is just multiple people saying "He made consecrations we didn't agree with!". That isn't proof of senility at all, or even an indicator of it.