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Author Topic: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful  (Read 7173 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2019, 05:07:17 PM »
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  • So far the only evidence of senility you've provided is just multiple people saying "He made consecrations we didn't agree with!". That isn't proof of senility at all, or even an indicator of it.

    LMAO:

    I am going to send someone to your house tonight to tell you that the BVM sent him to fetch you to bring you to the Congo.

    If you go, would you be sane?

    But wait, there's more!

    Shortly thereafter, I'm going to apologize and concelebrate the new Mass.

    Then 3 weeks later, I am going to "consecrate" des Lauriers.

    Then I'm going to consecrate ANYONE who asks to be consecrated.

    Then I'll repent again, then I'll revert again, and on and on.

    Am I senile, or just plain evil?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #61 on: August 26, 2019, 05:23:48 PM »
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  • Damn right, QVD, anything but schismatic, heretical sedevacantism.

    Now back to the topic:

    I don't care if you know 30 people with letters from their mommies who say Thuc was steady as a rock.

    When bishops and cardinals, sedes, and trad priests say he was off kilter, your buddies' opinions don't amount to a hill of beans.
    I am on topic because I see right through your agenda. You try, unsuccessfully, to cast dispersions on the only theory, during this crisis, that is supported by nearly all theologians, Doctors of the Church and basic logic.
    The nonsense that you’re peddling has been put to rest long ago. Muddying the waters is a sad and futile defense of your position.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #62 on: August 26, 2019, 05:34:33 PM »
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  • LMAO:

    I am going to send someone to your house tonight to tell you that the BVM sent him to fetch you to bring you to the Congo.

    If you go, would you be sane?

    But wait, there's more!

    Shortly thereafter, I'm going to apologize and concelebrate the new Mass.

    Then 3 weeks later, I am going to "consecrate" des Lauriers.

    Then I'm going to consecrate ANYONE who asks to be consecrated.

    Then I'll repent again, then I'll revert again, and on and on.

    Am I senile, or just plain evil?
    “I am going to send someone to your house tonight to tell you that the BVM sent him to fetch you to bring you to the Congo.”

    It wasn’t the Congo, it was Europe. Nice exaggeration though. As for the rest, at least he saw that there was a problem in the Church. Yeah, I might not have acted the way he did, but then again I wasn’t an Archbishop who experienced the havoc that Vatican II and the arch heretic Montini was doing to the Church. 



    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #63 on: August 26, 2019, 05:46:35 PM »
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  • Damn right, QVD, anything but schismatic, heretical sedevacantism.
    That’s right stick with your church of the superfluous pope and superfluous magisterium. Anything but sedevacantism.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #64 on: August 26, 2019, 05:48:45 PM »
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  • Oh?

    How do you explain this:

    I explain this by the fact that all of the testimony you cited is nothing more than what +Kelly does, speculate that he was unstable due to the unpredictable nature of his activities.  He would do something, then recant, then do something similar.  None of it speaks to the basic fact of whether he knew what he was doing.  Did +Thuc know what a bishop was and what Holy Orders are?  There's no question that he did.  His being a weak man who could be easily manipulated has no bearing on this simple fact.  +Mendez too was clearly and obviously being manipulated by +Kelly.  +Kelly is just a self-serving hypocrite, since all the issues with +Thuc apply even more to +Mendez.  There were people who know him at the precise time of the consecrations who explicitly stated that +Mendez was in a frail mental state and was manipulated emotionally by +Kelly into performing the consecration.  And that doesn't matter either ... in terms of validity (except +Kelly thinks it's material the +Thuc case while gratuitously dismissing it in the case of +Mendez).  In the case of +Thuc, his mental lucidity is corroborated by many people who know him well during the time.  Mental Lucidity and being suggestible and easily manipulated are two different things.

    It's the same kind of Modernist subjectivist reasoning that's applied these days to engineer all these fake marriage annulments.  I didn't REALLY want to do it.  I had cold feet.  I was under a lot of pressure due to my dad having already paid for the wedding.  etc. etc. etc.  NONE OF THAT MATTERS.  Unless you were explicitly co-erced and/or had no idea what marriage was, or were half-unconscious on drugs so that you didn't know where you were and who you are during the ceremony, the valid intention is presumed to exist.

    Same thing with +Thuc.  That Rite of Episcopal Consecration is NO TRIVIAL matter, and the mere fact that +Thuc was able to perform it and to properly read the text suggests that he was in possession of his faculties to the point that he knew what he was doing.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #65 on: August 26, 2019, 05:54:22 PM »
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  • I am on topic because I see right through your agenda. 
    Yup.  I had to LOL when Ladislaus said he was "now" showing he was intellectually dishonest. Now?  :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #66 on: August 26, 2019, 05:56:38 PM »
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  • PS: I notice every time I rebut you, you become the emotional woman Loudestmouth is known for.

    This is laughable, coming from the most emotionally-driven little girl here on CI.  Even Matthew called you out for acting like a baby.  So it's not just me.

    You didn't "rebut" anything.  You provided a couple pieces of evidence which must be weighed against all the other evidence.  Rebuttal implies an argument.  All you've done is try to make a case for a certain fact based on some testimony ... which is contradicted by other testimony.  But then you have next-to-no grasp of logic, so you routinely confound your little temper tantrums with "rebuttal".

    There were several times where you had your ass beaten with logical argument, where you stormed off the thread, and then started a half dozen spam threads in your fits of temper.  One time you even announced publicly that you were leaving CI due to Matthew's toleration of heretics.  Within days you were back posting in the Anonymous forum, and then when you were outed, returned with your tail between legs ... and not holding fast to your prior blustering.  At least once you created a fake new account so that you could pretend that you hadn't caved.  Both childish and effeminate.  You start blustering like this when you feel that your beat-down is imminent and when you have nothing else rational to add.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #67 on: August 26, 2019, 06:03:06 PM »
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  • You are grasping at straws:

    If they know a bishop is senile, they don't need to be at the consecration to hold it doubtful.

    It is presumed doubtful because of the senility, since the senile cannot confect a sacrament.

    Do you know how many ordinations and consecrations in the history of the Church were performed by men who were senile and forgetful?  Never has the Church doubted them.  One famous priest wrote in his biography that an assistant at his ordination had to place the elderly bishop's hands on his head because he had forgotten.  It is nonsense that the senile cannot confect a Sacrament.  In order to establish positive doubt, you have to provide concrete evidence that he lacked sufficient control of his faculties to have any idea of what he was doing.  That threshold is very, very low.  But you like to make things up, Johnson.  Father Cekada did a thorough theological study of the question and cited theologian after theologian regarding what a low bar is required for validity.  You want to think that mere speculation based on +Thuc's erratic behavior suffices.  But in point of fact, it does not.  If it did, the Church would be riddled with scruples regarding every other priest ever ordained.  But the Church doesn't operate like that.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #68 on: August 26, 2019, 06:04:34 PM »
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  • From the link I shared above:

    Your Excellency’s claim that the Thuc consecrations must be considered doubtful because Bp. Thuc may not have been in a mental state sufficient to have the necessary sacramental intention totally leaves out of account the fact that the minimum-necessary intention for conferring a valid sacrament is based on the minimum necessary for a human act, which is an act proceeding from knowledge and free will. “Mental imbalance,” if such should have been the case with Bp. Thuc, does not nearly suffice to prevent one from engaging in a human act. There is no evidence that Bp. Thuc was insane, much less habitually so, and such would have to be proven clinically anyway, as any court of law, ecclesiastical or civil, would require.

    THIS ^^^

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #69 on: August 26, 2019, 06:07:36 PM »
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  • The senile do not commit human acts, and consequently, they do not confect sacraments.

    Utter garbage, Jonhson.  You do understand, don't you, that there are different degrees of senility?  So your blanket statement in this regard is utterly moronic.  Only the most extreme stages of senility would render the man incapable of performing the act, and if he was even capable of performing the complex ceremony at all, then it's clear that he was NOT at that stage of senility.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #70 on: August 26, 2019, 06:09:09 PM »
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  • LMAO:

    We are witnessing another epic meltdown on the part of Johnson here.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #71 on: August 26, 2019, 06:11:30 PM »
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  • Yup.  I had to LOL when Ladislaus said he was "now" showing he was intellectually dishonest. Now?  :laugh1:

    Well, yes.  We always knew the actual truth of the matter.  But for a while he tries to play rational and civil, and then the cracks start showing, until finally there's a complete meltdown.  We've gone through this process several times before .. and it always plays out the same.  It's pathetic to witness each time.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #72 on: August 26, 2019, 06:18:47 PM »
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  • "Your Excellency’s claim that the Thuc consecrations must be considered doubtful because Bp. Thuc may not have been in a mental state sufficient to have the necessary sacramental intention totally leaves out of account the fact that the minimum-necessary intention for conferring a valid sacrament is based on the minimum necessary for a human act, which is an act proceeding from knowledge and free will."

    THIS ^^^


    What about the claims that Archbishop Thuc admitted to withholding his intention?  That's something that has always bothered me.    
    This is the specific claim I'm referring to:
     
    “So after the questionable ordinations [Palmar de Troya], Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect.” (Angelus Magazine, June 1982 edition - emphasis supplied) http://bishopjosephmarie.org/doctrine/invalidorders.html
     
    Does anyone have any additional information about this?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #73 on: August 26, 2019, 06:30:38 PM »
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  • What about the claims that Archbishop Thuc admitted to withholding his intention?  That's something that has always bothered me.    
    This is the specific claim I'm referring to:
     
    “So after the questionable ordinations [Palmar de Troya], Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the ‘orders’ he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect.” (Angelus Magazine, June 1982 edition - emphasis supplied) http://bishopjosephmarie.org/doctrine/invalidorders.html
     
    Does anyone have any additional information about this?

    No one has yet produced a source for this allegation.  He said at one time that he withheld his intention while concelebrating the Novus Ordo Mass under pressure from the ordinary.  So my guess is that this allegation was conflated with this statement.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Thuc Consecrations/Ordinations Highly Doubtful
    « Reply #74 on: August 26, 2019, 06:52:17 PM »
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  • I see Mrs. Loudestmouth has vomited out a string of 11 2-sentence posts.  Again.  

    :baby:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."