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Author Topic: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please  (Read 8864 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2024, 10:25:44 AM »
I thought the stock answer is: "to do as the Church intends." 

It's actuallly to DO what the Church DOES.  That's why an atheist can validly baptize.  Otherwise, it would be absurd to think he could do so.  So, the atheist could intend, "Well, I'm going to do this thing, pouring water on the head and saying these words [mumbo jumbo that they are], just because this guy's dying and asked me to do it." but as an atheist invariably would, think the entire time what a bunch of nonsense it was and that it was doing nothing but making the guy feel better.  But as long as he intends, yes, internally, "I'm doing this thing that these Christians do, saying words, pouring water." .... it would be valid.

Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2024, 10:29:55 AM »
But if I'm a priest and I go into the sacristy and put on my vestments, and then go out there at the time schedule for Mass in the bulletin, and peform the Rite of the Church ... which I intend to DO "internally" ... I could think in my head all I want that "I don't intend to consecrate.  I don't intend to transubstantiate." and it matters nothing.  You still intended to DO what the Church does, i.e. to PERFORM the Rite that the Church prescibes, wherein the CHURCH intends to consecrate.  Valid Mass regardless of any such schizophrenic mindgames.  It's very similar to the loaded gun above.  If you pull the trigger on the loaded gun, you absolutely intended to DO what it takes to KILL the man, even if in your head you keep reiterating the mantra "I do not wish to kill him.  I do not wish to kill him."  No, you intended to DO that which WOULD almost inevitably kill him, so you intended to kill him.  Of course, even if, say, the gun jams, you're still formally guilty of attempted murder ... but that's a separate issue.
OK. So in a Novus Ordo ordination, the intent is probably there, it's the invalid form, matter and minister which makes the ceremony doubtful? 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2024, 11:02:41 AM »

Quote
OK. So in a Novus Ordo ordination, the intent is probably there, it's the invalid form, matter and minister which makes the ceremony doubtful? 
Yes, the form/prayer is doubtful, because it does not follow Pius XII's strict rules.  Also, it's illicit because it violates Pius XII's strict rules.


Many pro-V2/indult people argue that the form/prayer is valid because...it's similar to other rites (i.e. orthodox).  Ok, but that's still a guess.  It's not certain.  Pius XII gave us the "certain" form for the Latin church.  Without any other pope officially changing the form (not even sure if that's possible) then the form is the form.  And any deviation from the form is, by definition, doubtful.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2024, 11:26:50 AM »
OK. So in a Novus Ordo ordination, the intent is probably there, it's the invalid form, matter and minister which makes the ceremony doubtful?

Ah, you're definitely opening up cans of worms.  So the question about intent in the NO (and there is a question of intent there also) has to do with the fact that normally when you intend to DO what the Church DOES, that which the Church does, aka the Rite, sufficiently expresses (at least outwardly) the intention of the Church.

When Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Ordination invalid, he stated that the intention of the Rite was defective, and that the intention of the minister (their bishops) could not override the defective intention of their Rite, and that this was not changed by a correction they made to the essential form part, where they fixed the essential form but the entire Missal and the entire context for it and rationale behind it was so defective that it remained invalid even with this correction of the essential form.

Sounds a lot like the NOM, where initially they vitiated the essential form ("for you and for all") ... strangely, in every vernacular translation ... as if it were a coordinated effort (which of course it was).  Then they "fixed" the essential form, but the rest of it and the context were still dubious, especially in their destruction of the Catholic Offertory, the chief part of the Mass that indicates what the intent of the upcoming Canon is.  By itself, you could simply view the Canon as a re-enactment of the Last Supper, an "Institution Narrative" as the NO like to call it, vs. a sacrifice.  With the original Catholic Offertory, that was absolutely clear.  Not so much in the NO.

Similarly for the NO Ordination, there's hardly ANYthing in the NO Rite that has any mention of the Catholic notion of priesthood (whereas the Traditional Rite was filled with it).

In any case, I hold that the NO Rites, including Ordination and the Mass, are so vitiated in the intention expressed by the Rite that the minister's intention to do what the Church does cannot override it.

Now, the SSPX line has been that the intention of the Rite is ambiguous and there's no Catholic intention unambiguously expressed anywhere in it, and so the validity depends upon the intention of the minister being correct and his correct understanding of what the Rite SHOULD intend (even though it doesn't do so by itself).  I disagree and find that this contradicts Pope Leo XIII on the Anglican Orders, because the Pope taught that an internal intention of the minister to do what the Church INTENDS to do in Ordinations does not somehow supply for or override the defective intention of the Rite.  He didn't say that, well, we should investigate each bishop to see if he believes correctly about the nature of Ordination to determine on a case-by-case basis whether it's valid or not.

But, yes, the NO changed essential form of Ordination to Priesthood and Episcopal Consecration to the point that the essential forms are also dubious.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2024, 11:58:53 AM »

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Ah, you're definitely opening up cans of worms.  So the question about intent in the NO (and there is a question of intent there also) has to do with the fact that normally when you intend to DO what the Church DOES, that which the Church does, aka the Rite, sufficiently expresses (at least outwardly) the intention of the Church.
The bottomline is this:  In the True/Traditional rites, the (True) Church, by way of the Holy Ghost, worded the form so that it perfectly and essentially translated the proper, complete and valid intention which Christ gave to the Apostles.  If a valid priest, prayed the form/prayer as worded, then validity is presumed.  Because the form/prayer = the Church's intention.


In the new rites, the form/prayer DOES NOT contain the Church's intention in whole (only parts of it, written ambiguously).  Therefore, the new rites REQUIRE the priest to provide HIS OWN INTENTION to make up for ambiguous language.  If the priest has doubtful orders himself, and/or had faulty/protestant/V2 seminary training where he thinks things contrary to orthodoxy, then HIS INTENTIONS are flawed and the rite is invalid.

To sum up:
1.  Tradition rites -- simple.  The form/prayer contains everything needed for validity, if said by a valid cleric.

2.  New rites -- complicated.  The form/prayer is ambiguous and requires a (doubtful) cleric to supply a personal intention to the missing parts of the form.  And even if the cleric is valid and even if he DOES SUPPLY the missing intentions, it's debatable whether or not the form is valid because such a sacramental form is unique in all of Church history.  It would definitely be a schismatic rite, as it is contrary to every major sacramental law of Trent.