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Author Topic: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please  (Read 8862 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2024, 12:03:22 PM »
Yes, the form/prayer is doubtful, because it does not follow Pius XII's strict rules.  Also, it's illicit because it violates Pius XII's strict rules.


Many pro-V2/indult people argue that the form/prayer is valid because...it's similar to other rites (i.e. orthodox).  Ok, but that's still a guess.  It's not certain.  Pius XII gave us the "certain" form for the Latin church.  Without any other pope officially changing the form (not even sure if that's possible) then the form is the form.  And any deviation from the form is, by definition, doubtful.

Yeah, so the argument about episcopal consecration from the no-doubter crowd is that it resembles an ancient Maronite Rite.  Problem, as Fr. Cekada found, is that the Rite in question was actually the installation of a Patriarch, which already assumed that the one being elevated was a valid bishop ... and was not their actual consecration Rite, and so it's expressing a conferral of jurisdiction or authority rather than Holy Orders.  We see in the NO Rite that it's vaguely talking about the "authority" of the Apostles.  But not all bishops who are consecrated actually receive the authority or jurisdiction, and most are in fact auxiliary bishops before they then get appointed to specific Sees and endowed with authority and jurisdiction.  So that exposes this fraud right there.

But, as you said, it's a substantial change and CERTAINLY rises to at least the level of establishing positive doubt.  There's something concrete you can point to that changed, ergo "positive" not negative.  Until the Church intervenes like Leo XIII did for Anglican Orders, we can't be certain of invalidity, but for all practical intents and purposes, positive doubt requires us to avoid the priest as if the invalidity were certain, with the single exception that in danger of death if a doubtful priests is the only one available to you, you may attempt to receive the Sacraments from him.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2024, 12:07:25 PM »
Because the form/prayer = the Church's intention.

Yes, that's what Pope Leo XIII said about the Anglican Orders.  If you look at the Anglican Rite (corrected for the essential form problem), it really didn't express anything actively contrary to Catholic theology about Holy Orders ... just failed to actively express it.  Pope Leo XIII gave no indication that it COULD be valid on account of ambiguity that could then be supplied by the "interior intention" of a particular minister, where each ordination had to be investigated on a case by case basis depending on what the Ordaining Bishop believed.  He just stated flat-out invalid.  I believe that'll be the ultimate verdict from the Church on NO Orders also ... but in the meantime there's plenty to establish positive doubt, despite the wishful-thinking deniers.  Basically all their argument do is to content that it COULD BE valid, but do not prove that it IS.  Not good enough.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2024, 12:10:39 PM »

Quote
we can't be certain of invalidity, but for all practical intents and purposes, positive doubt requires us to avoid the priest as if the invalidity were certain
THIS IS THE KEY.  If only this were preached from the pulpits from every Trad priest.  This is the true answer, based on canon law.  It's not an opinion; it's not a guess; it's canon law.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2024, 12:22:57 PM »
THIS IS THE KEY.  If only this were preached from the pulpits from every Trad priest.  This is the true answer, based on canon law.  It's not an opinion; it's not a guess; it's canon law.

Right, and I believe it's based on some very authoritative papal teaching.

As I said, the only practical difference between certain invalidity and positive doubt is in danger of death situations, where in the latter you can attempt to receive Sacraments from a doubtful priest if that's your only option, whereas with certain invalidity you can't.  If I were dying and there was no other chance to have a priest do anything, I'd go ahead and avail myself of an NO priest ... just in case.  Who knows, even?, maybe they were transfers from an Eastern Rite, or something.  I pray it never comes to that, but God's will be done.  If God wanted me to receive Last Sacraments as I lay dying, he wouldn't send me an invalid priest.  If he didn't want me to receive them, then He would.  It's entirely His will.  I hope that it's the former due to First Friday promises.

But it's the same for me about Baptism.  You could always wonder if the priest who baptized you may have botched the form.  Well, if that happened, it was God's will.  God could have willed for me to be born among animists and never be baptized at all.  Salvation is a free gift of God that I don't deserve.  We can pray that if that happened to us, it would be discovered somehow and fixed or that God might send an angel to baptize us, or as in the case of St. Peter Claver, have a saint raise us back to life.

Re: Thuc Achievements....correct me if I'm wrong please
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2024, 01:03:24 PM »
Ah, you're definitely opening up cans of worms.  So the question about intent in the NO (and there is a question of intent there also) has to do with the fact that normally when you intend to DO what the Church DOES, that which the Church does, aka the Rite, sufficiently expresses (at least outwardly) the intention of the Church.

But, yes, the NO changed essential form of Ordination to Priesthood and Episcopal Consecration to the point that the essential forms are also dubious.
Thank you for your summary which I will need to reread and digest a number of times. 

I have come to the same conclusion because logic dictates that if something perfect needed to be changed, the intention can only be to make it imperfect. That conclusion was enough to flee the Novos Ordo Sacraments and priests ordained by conciliar bishops.