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Author Topic: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM  (Read 3084 times)

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Offline Mr G

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THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
« on: April 02, 2022, 06:30:12 PM »
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  • https://sajm--siteofficiel-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2022/04/trois-nouveaux-sous-diacres-pour-la-sajm.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    Today Mgr Gerardo Zendejas (SAJM) conferred the sub-diaconate on three seminarians of the Society of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary, during a pontifical mass celebrated at the Convent of the Hague at Les Bonshommes (Avrillé).






    Offline epiphany

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #1 on: April 03, 2022, 07:45:03 AM »
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  • https://sajm--siteofficiel-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2022/04/trois-nouveaux-sous-diacres-pour-la-sajm.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    Today Mgr Gerardo Zendejas (SAJM) conferred the sub-diaconate on three seminarians of the Society of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary, during a pontifical mass celebrated at the Convent of the Hague at Les Bonshommes (Avrillé).
    "Mgr"?
    And why did hr have to travel to Avrille to do this?  Isn't b. Thomas Aquinas IN Avrille?

    Thank you for the post.  Nice to see it growing.


    Offline Clarinha

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #2 on: April 03, 2022, 05:10:24 PM »
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  • I recall members of this forum awaiting to see if Bishop Fellay would travel to France since it required vaccination to enter. Perhaps the vaccination restrictions have now changed. 

    Offline AGeorge

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #3 on: April 03, 2022, 05:54:21 PM »
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  • "Mgr"?
    And why did hr have to travel to Avrille to do this?  Isn't b. Thomas Aquinas IN Avrille?

    Thank you for the post.  Nice to see it growing.
    Monsignor is an honorary title used for a bishop. Literally means "my lord."
    Abp. Lefebvre always wanted the bishops to rotate around to perform ordination at the various seminaries, (especially those who were rectors) to avoid any semblance of a parallel jurisdiction. 
    The years I was in Winona, Bp. Williamson usually didn't perform ordination there, even though he was the rector.

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #4 on: April 03, 2022, 06:06:23 PM »
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  • I recall members of this forum awaiting to see if Bishop Fellay would travel to France since it required vaccination to enter. Perhaps the vaccination restrictions have now changed.
    To enter France from abroad, you don't a covid injection. A negative test is acceptable https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/covid-19-international-travel


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #5 on: April 03, 2022, 10:54:44 PM »
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  • Monsignor is an honorary title used for a bishop. Literally means "my lord."
    Abp. Lefebvre always wanted the bishops to rotate around to perform ordination at the various seminaries, (especially those who were rectors) to avoid any semblance of a parallel jurisdiction.
    The years I was in Winona, Bp. Williamson usually didn't perform ordination there, even though he was the rector.
    Thank you for the explanation.
    I thought the honorary title of Msgr was given only by Rome?  How would b. Zendejas be given this title?

    Offline AGeorge

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 04:55:18 AM »
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  • Thank you for the explanation.
    I thought the honorary title of Msgr was given only by Rome?  How would b. Zendejas be given this title?
    To the best of my knowledge, the title was historically used for men in the fullness of the priesthood because of their rank..(popes, cardinals, bishops, etc.) It then started to be given to priests who were not bishops as an honorary mark of distinction of long term service, or the like. But unlike these latter cases, the priest only possessed the priesthood and not episcopacy. So, I think that in the case of Bp. Zendejas, referring to him as Monsignor is simply a title integral to his episcopal character.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 01:49:56 PM »
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  • To the best of my knowledge, the title was historically used for men in the fullness of the priesthood because of their rank..(popes, cardinals, bishops, etc.) It then started to be given to priests who were not bishops as an honorary mark of distinction of long term service, or the like. But unlike these latter cases, the priest only possessed the priesthood and not episcopacy. So, I think that in the case of Bp. Zendejas, referring to him as Monsignor is simply a title integral to his episcopal character.
    Huh.

    I would think calling a bishop a monsignor would be offensive if a priest can be a monsignor, too.

    B. Zendejas told me I should call him "your grace".


    Offline AGeorge

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 05:03:10 PM »
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  • Huh.

    I would think calling a bishop a monsignor would be offensive if a priest can be a monsignor, too.

    B. Zendejas told me I should call him "your grace".
    I see your point, but I don't see it as offensive at all. Abp. Lefebvre was also referred to as Monsignor at times.
    A bishop can be addressed by a variety of different ways...
    "Your Grace" is very appropriate... Your Excellency, Your Lordship, etc...I was partial to addressing Bp. Williamson as "my lord" I seminary, which is the English form of the title. That was a common one among us..
    There's a distinction to be made between a priest with the honorary title and a bishop. A priest has to have the title given to him by the Pope. A bishop does not, because he has a higher priestly dignity and rank. It's integral to his office.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #9 on: April 05, 2022, 05:42:24 AM »
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  • It is a common practice in continental Europe and in Latin America to address a bishop informally as "monsignor/monsigneur", meaning "my Lord". When first encounteted, this custom of address can sound quite strange to Catholics with Anglo ears, especially anglophone North American Catholics. But even most anglophones outside those United States have used this form address, namely, addressing a bishop as "your Lordship" and an archbishop as "your Grace". These correspond to the forms of address to middle nobility and upper nobility respectively in the British Empire. Bishop Zendejas could be addressed as "Monsignor", "your Lordship", or "your Excellency" (contintental style) but never as "your Grace" (or "your Eminence" or "your Beatitude" or "your Holiness"). What can also sound funny to Catholic anglophone ears are the forms of address: "your Right Reverendship" (bishops, abbots) and "your Most Reverendship" (bishops, archbishops), since these uses are today most often used in the Anglican Communion. Another usage that sounds odd to many Catholics is addressing prelates simply as "Father". This is simply shortened for "reverend Father" (priest), "very reverend Father" (vicars foraine, domestic prelates, chancellors, seminary rectors), "right reverend Father" (bishops, abbots), "most reverend Father" (bishops, archbishops).
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #10 on: April 05, 2022, 09:53:04 AM »
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  • I see your point, but I don't see it as offensive at all. Abp. Lefebvre was also referred to as Monsignor at times.
    A bishop can be addressed by a variety of different ways...
    "Your Grace" is very appropriate... Your Excellency, Your Lordship, etc...I was partial to addressing Bp. Williamson as "my lord" I seminary, which is the English form of the title. That was a common one among us..
    There's a distinction to be made between a priest with the honorary title and a bishop. A priest has to have the title given to him by the Pope. A bishop does not, because he has a higher priestly dignity and rank. It's integral to his office.
    Thank you for this explanation.  


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #11 on: April 05, 2022, 09:56:28 AM »
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  • It is a common practice in continental Europe and in Latin America to address a bishop informally as "monsignor/monsigneur", meaning "my Lord". When first encounteted, this custom of address can sound quite strange to Catholics with Anglo ears, especially anglophone North American Catholics. But even most anglophones outside those United States have used this form address, namely, addressing a bishop as "your Lordship" and an archbishop as "your Grace". These correspond to the forms of address to middle nobility and upper nobility respectively in the British Empire. Bishop Zendejas could be addressed as "Monsignor", "your Lordship", or "your Excellency" (contintental style) but never as "your Grace" (or "your Eminence" or "your Beatitude" or "your Holiness"). What can also sound funny to Catholic anglophone ears are the forms of address: "your Right Reverendship" (bishops, abbots) and "your Most Reverendship" (bishops, archbishops), since these uses are today most often used in the Anglican Communion. Another usage that sounds odd to many Catholics is addressing prelates simply as "Father". This is simply shortened for "reverend Father" (priest), "very reverend Father" (vicars foraine, domestic prelates, chancellors, seminary rectors), "right reverend Father" (bishops, abbots), "most reverend Father" (bishops, archbishops).
    Thank you for this.  Very informative and educational. 

    I wonder why b. Zendejas wants to be called "your grace", when he is not an archbishop.  Maybe he doesn't know he shouldn't be called such.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #12 on: April 05, 2022, 10:27:46 AM »
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  • I see your point, but I don't see it as offensive at all. Abp. Lefebvre was also referred to as Monsignor at times.
    A bishop can be addressed by a variety of different ways...
    "Your Grace" is very appropriate... Your Excellency, Your Lordship, etc...I was partial to addressing Bp. Williamson as "my lord" I seminary, which is the English form of the title. That was a common one among us..
    There's a distinction to be made between a priest with the honorary title and a bishop. A priest has to have the title given to him by the Pope. A bishop does not, because he has a higher priestly dignity and rank. It's integral to his office.
    I always just assumed that +Lefebvre had been created a monsignor at some point, and due to the honor inherent in the title, it was a mark of respect to refer to him as "Monsignor Lefebvre".  Was I wrong?

    Offline AGeorge

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #13 on: April 05, 2022, 06:03:50 PM »
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  • I always just assumed that +Lefebvre had been created a monsignor at some point, and due to the honor inherent in the title, it was a mark of respect to refer to him as "Monsignor Lefebvre".  Was I wrong?
    If I understand your question correctly, I don't believe he was given the title "Monsignor" prior to being consecrated a bishop. But once he was a bishop, then archbishop etc., then he wouldn't have needed to be given the title, since it would have been inherent to his office of bishop/archbishop.

    Offline rochefrogcauld

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    Re: THREE NEW SUB-DEACONS FOR THE SAJM
    « Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 06:38:17 AM »
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  • I recall members of this forum awaiting to see if Bishop Fellay would travel to France since it required vaccination to enter. Perhaps the vaccination restrictions have now changed.
    This is the mistake many have made over the past year on the vaxx, not realizing how much of the push for it was propaganda to keep you in a paranoid state. In order to enforce something, desire from the top is not enough, you must also have the people on the bottom willing to enforce it.