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Author Topic: Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church  (Read 8681 times)

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Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2015, 03:39:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I really should start a blog called "Tradbusters" (in the spirit of Mythbusters) to out all the axiomatic propaganda being used by Trads to justify various positions.


    Had I had access to such a compilation, it would have saved me a few years of believing the same axioms and mindlessly nodding my head or repeating the memes without better catachesis.  

    The honest - if often heated - debates, and the good souls who persevere to help the faithful understand Church teaching, canon law, etc, here on Cathinfo are beyond measure.  I'll offer Mass tonight in thanksgiving.

    Stay objective in the faith, ya'll.


    Offline Franciscan Solitary

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #16 on: April 23, 2015, 02:54:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintalice
    This overly romantic view of the Rome and the Catholic Church is nauseating to me.  It is not based in reality (or history I might add).  It's idealistic and emotional.  This fluffy romanticism makes the SSPX and Traditional Catholicism appear weak, not strong.  

    Very well said.  Fideist sentimentality is death.


    Offline Franciscan Solitary

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #17 on: April 23, 2015, 02:59:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Francisco
    Are they rattled that Fr Chazal may have gone sedeprivationist and may convince others to follow him, so they flew out "Top Gun" Laisney to sort things out?. Did they distribute holy cards of Bergoglio after Mass?. Don't be surprised if they did!

    Seems to be exactly what was going on.  They are terribly afraid of something.

    Offline Franciscan Solitary

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #18 on: April 23, 2015, 03:05:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I really should start a blog called "Tradbusters" (in the spirit of Mythbusters) to out all the axiomatic propaganda being used by Trads to justify various positions.


    Had I had access to such a compilation, it would have saved me a few years of believing the same axioms and mindlessly nodding my head or repeating the memes without better catachesis.  

    The honest - if often heated - debates, and the good souls who persevere to help the faithful understand Church teaching, canon law, etc, here on Cathinfo are beyond measure.  I'll offer Mass tonight in thanksgiving.

    Stay objective in the faith, ya'll.

    This hits the bullseye.  Fideism is the Protestant disease.  Fideism is death.



    Offline stbrighidswell

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #19 on: April 23, 2015, 03:57:55 AM »
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  • ok correct me if I am wrong I thought ABL said 'no practical agreement if there is no doctrinal agreement'.

    What this priest is saying is there can be a practical agreement ( TO GET CANONICAL STATUS) without compromising doctrine.

    they are two different statements


    Offline reconquest

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #20 on: April 23, 2015, 12:26:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    So Ladislaus, why then, according your version of reality, was St Paul not "out of the Church" for resisting St. Peter to his face? And where, pray tell, does it say it is de fide to obey a pope who tells you to commit sin? And the state of emergency — obviously you're okay with Koran-kissing and sacred beach balls and popes bowing to Mecca in a mosque and clown masses, and and and... no state of emergency, nothing to see here folks, move along...

    Was St. Peter a modernist?
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline AlexA

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 12:29:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: stbrighidswell
    ok correct me if I am wrong I thought ABL said 'no practical agreement if there is no doctrinal agreement'.

    What this priest is saying is there can be a practical agreement ( TO GET CANONICAL STATUS) without compromising doctrine.

    they are two different statements


    Glad to see someone sticking with the thread topic.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 01:27:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: reconquest
    Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    So Ladislaus, why then, according your version of reality, was St Paul not "out of the Church" for resisting St. Peter to his face? And where, pray tell, does it say it is de fide to obey a pope who tells you to commit sin? And the state of emergency — obviously you're okay with Koran-kissing and sacred beach balls and popes bowing to Mecca in a mosque and clown masses, and and and... no state of emergency, nothing to see here folks, move along...

    Was St. Peter a modernist?


    Yeah, the "Faith is greater than obedience" thing is one of the biggest.  This is not an issue of resisting a positive command that is harmful to the Faith.  We are talking about the MAGISTERIUM.  If we have to resist the Magisterium in order to maintain the faith, this then undermines the very raison d'etre of the Magisterium and uproots everything that makes us different from Protestants.  To say that we must reject and "resist" the Magisterium in order to keep our faith is to say that the Magisterium has defected, that the Church has defected.


    Offline JPaul

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #23 on: April 26, 2015, 12:37:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: reconquest
    Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    So Ladislaus, why then, according your version of reality, was St Paul not "out of the Church" for resisting St. Peter to his face? And where, pray tell, does it say it is de fide to obey a pope who tells you to commit sin? And the state of emergency — obviously you're okay with Koran-kissing and sacred beach balls and popes bowing to Mecca in a mosque and clown masses, and and and... no state of emergency, nothing to see here folks, move along...

    Was St. Peter a modernist?


    Yeah, the "Faith is greater than obedience" thing is one of the biggest.  This is not an issue of resisting a positive command that is harmful to the Faith.  We are talking about the MAGISTERIUM.  If we have to resist the Magisterium in order to maintain the faith, this then undermines the very raison d'etre of the Magisterium and uproots everything that makes us different from Protestants.  To say that we must reject and "resist" the Magisterium in order to keep our faith is to say that the Magisterium has defected, that the Church has defected.


    That is very true. Only by seeing that the declarations of the Council and the personal teachings of the conciliar popes do not, at all, have magisterial authority, can one then see the true Magisterium of the Church as untouched, uncorrupted, and remaining  both infallible and perfect.

    Offline drew

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    Those Who Reject The Popes And Are Out Of the Church
    « Reply #24 on: April 26, 2015, 03:25:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: reconquest
    Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    So Ladislaus, why then, according your version of reality, was St Paul not "out of the Church" for resisting St. Peter to his face? And where, pray tell, does it say it is de fide to obey a pope who tells you to commit sin? And the state of emergency — obviously you're okay with Koran-kissing and sacred beach balls and popes bowing to Mecca in a mosque and clown masses, and and and... no state of emergency, nothing to see here folks, move along...

    Was St. Peter a modernist?


    Yeah, the "Faith is greater than obedience" thing is one of the biggest.  This is not an issue of resisting a positive command that is harmful to the Faith.  We are talking about the MAGISTERIUM.  If we have to resist the Magisterium in order to maintain the faith, this then undermines the very raison d'etre of the Magisterium and uproots everything that makes us different from Protestants.  To say that we must reject and "resist" the Magisterium in order to keep our faith is to say that the Magisterium has defected, that the Church has defected.


    Obedience in itself is neither good nor bad.  Its character is determined by what and to whom obedience is given.  Obedience is one of the several subsidiary virtues of Justice.  The first duty of Justice is the virtue of Religion and it is the virtue of Religion which determines if an act of Obedience is a virtue or not.  The virtue of Religion consists of specific acts many of which can be directly observed and measured and are listed in any text on moral theology.  There is not a single act of the virtue of Religion that has not been trampled upon since Vatican II by Catholics by their submission to a false obedience which they were morally obligated to resist.

    We all owe obedience to the Magisterium if we are to save our souls so it is imperative that we understand what we mean by “Magisterium.”  The word is not univocal but has what I understand to be three distinct and different meanings.  One is the infallible teaching authority of the Church, the second is the teaching of churchmen by their grace of state, and the third refers only to the office itself as in “authentic (or authorized) magisterium” which is more related to authority of the office than to any specific teaching.  These are not distinctions of degree but of kind.

    St. Pius X in Pascendi says “every society needs a directing authority to guide its members toward the common end, to foster prudently the elements of cohesion, which in a religious society are doctrine and worship; hence, the triple authority in the Catholic Church, disciplinary, dogmatic and liturgical” (emphasis his).  The purpose of the “directing authority” (i.e. disciplinary) is to direct the Church “toward the common end” which are “doctrine” (dogmatic) and “worship” (liturgical).  The Church is God’s.  He established it and endowed it with three primary attributes: Authority, Infallibility and Indefectibility.  These three correspond to the three primary duties of the Church: to govern (to do), to teach (to know), and to sanctify (to be).  The Magisterium to which obedience is always unconditionally due is that which is grounded upon the attribute of Infallibility that God has endowed His Church to teach without the possibility of error.  These constitute the truths of our Faith and the purity of liturgical worship to which all the faithful are subject regardless of any office they may hold in the Church whatsoever.  All other forms of obedience are necessarily conditional.  

    The 1989 Profession of Faith which Pope Benedict XVI and, more recently, Archbishop Guido Pozzo, said is the one and only unconditional requirement for the regularization of the SSPX.  The problem is that this Profession of Faith contains a non-dogmatic proposition, that is, the third paragraph added to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, that calls for unconditional submission of the “will and intellect,” or as Lumen Gentium calls it, submission of the “soul,” to the “authentic magisterium” which essentially identifies the actual the papal office.
    Quote from: 1989 Profession of Faith, third additional paragraph
    What is more, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which
    either the Roman pontiff or the college of bishops enunciate when they exercise the authentic Magisterium even if they proclaim those teachings in an act that is not definitive.  

    Donum Veritatis, on religious vocation of theologians which references Lumen Gentium, Cardinal Ratzinger said that the “religious submission of will and intellect... cannot be simply exterior or disciplinary but must be understood within the logic of faith and under the impulse of obedience to the faith” and indicates the “indissoluble bond between the ‘sensus fidei’” and the “religious submission of the will and intellect.... to the (authentic) magisterium.”  This is indistinguishable from the submission that every faithful Catholic must give to articles of divine and Catholic Faith and constitutes a form of idolatry in that it calls for men to give to men what can only be given to God.

    I believe that Bishop Fellay has already made this Profession of Faith.  

    If Rome were interested in regularizing the SSPX it should require nothing from the SSPX and could be done even without their consultation.  What +Fellay could have done and should have done, and by not doing betrayed ever Faithful Catholic, was to demand from Rome that the infallible Magisterium be engaged to definitively answer directly the questions of Faith and purity of worship that have been undermined or corrupted by the authentic magisterium of Vatican II and the authentic magisterium of the post-conciliar popes.  

    As Catholics we must always submit to the Magisterium of the Church and resist any exercise of the “authentic magisterium” exercised by churchmen who employ the ordinary magisterium in a manner that undermines in either word or deed the truths of our faith or the purity of worship that is due to God.
     
    Drew

    Offline drew

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    « Reply #25 on: April 27, 2015, 08:14:00 AM »
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  • Solange Hertz once wrote that the two greatest historical examples of God testing His faithful are the angelic test when the angels to be faithful to God had to disobey Lucifer their divinely constituted superior, and the Jєωs during the time of Jesus when the faithful to follow Jesus Christ had to disobey their divinely constituted superiors, the Pharisees, who ‘sat upon the chair of Moses.'  We should not be surprised to find ourselves in a like situation.
     
    St. Michael and the ‘man blind from birth’ are two intercessors to ask for guidance during these times of ‘diabolical disorientation’ to deliver us from a false obedience keeping us faithful to the virtue of Religion.  

    The conservative Catholics, who are the dead weight carried by traditional Catholics, always pride themselves on their obedience.  They will have a lot to answer for and in my opinion will bear the greatest guilt for the current apostasy.

    Drew


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    « Reply #26 on: April 27, 2015, 10:14:29 AM »
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  • Church hierarchy can't even come out and clearly state that Medjugorje is a hoax.


    If they can't do that, then I hardly think that they will EVER have the BASIC CAPABILITY to dare to claim the SSPX is either in or out of the Catholic Church.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #27 on: April 27, 2015, 11:45:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch

    Church hierarchy can't even come out and clearly state that Medjugorje is a hoax.


    If they can't do that, then I hardly think that they will EVER have the BASIC CAPABILITY to dare to claim the SSPX is either in or out of the Catholic Church.  



    That's like comparing apples and oranges, one of which completely rotten.

    Medjugorrie does not attack the Vatican II sect but rather promotes it.  That's a big difference.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #28 on: April 27, 2015, 12:02:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch

    Church hierarchy can't even come out and clearly state that Medjugorje is a hoax.


    If they can't do that, then I hardly think that they will EVER have the BASIC CAPABILITY to dare to claim the SSPX is either in or out of the Catholic Church.  


    Good point. The conciliar church doesn't condemn ANYTHING or anyone. It's part of their package of errors.

    When was the last solemn excommunication? And no, 1988 doesn't count. That wasn't an excommunication. Ecclesia Dei Afflicta just said that these men incurred an ipso facto excommunication -- it didn't actually excommunicate them.


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    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #29 on: April 27, 2015, 12:18:31 PM »
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  • Fr. Laisney's assertions in this letter are nearly identical with parts of the 48 responses by the Campos priests concerning an "understanding" with the Roman authorities (which I have not translated but can be found in Spanish).  It is so incredibly comparable that it is creepy.  But there is a progress.  The 48 responses was actually a conservative bent "we must attack the errors of the Council but interpret it in the light of Tradition" sort of docuмent.  It was not long at all and this had morphed into: "if we do not celebrate the new Mass we are schismatic like the SSPX".

    What is interesting is that this 48 answers docuмent took a light approach when speaking about Bishop Fellay...he was mentioned as having received a response regarding their decision to have an "understanding" (as opposed to the word agreement or compromise) and had not responded.  They also cite him as a motivating factor to their priests for the reason being of having came to Campos and given a conference to priests and faithful that diocesan Masses were popping up all over the U.S.  Apparently, they considered this as a sign that the situation in the Church had improved.

    In contrast, and also similar to this letter by Fr. Laisney, Bishop Williamson was attacked several times for his anti-accordist position even back then.  Their arguments were mostly against the statement that Campos had fallen and his way of calling the modernists "Romans", something they equated with protestant language in reference to Catholics.

    I am convinced that the SSPX is headed in the same direction and have taken the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...