Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano  (Read 5342 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2020, 04:12:54 PM »
Here is summed up by Ladislaus the essential problem of sedevacantism, a problem that Archbishop Lefebvre understood, but Ladislaus, sadly, does not.

The sedevacantist effectively sets himself up as pope. He takes this opinion, expressed by Ladislaus, and promulgates it as absolute, definitive, dogmatic, binding on the Catholic conscience.

Nonsense, Full Stomach.  Archbishop Lefebvre held a much more nuanced view of the Pope question that you claim.  I get tired of those who claim that he was unequivocally anti-sedevacantist.  That's just an outright lie.

No, what you're describing is DOGMATIC sedevacantism, but you try to lump all of sedevacantism in with it.  I too have criticized dogmatic sedevacantism on the same grounds that you cite.  That's grossly dishonest and you are hereby disqualified from this discussion.

Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2020, 05:15:41 PM »
Father Chazal without hesitation states that Berogoglio is without a doubt a manifest heretic.  He merely adopts the position, against +Bellarmine, that manifest heretics need to be deposed.  He repeatedly stated that he had to "agree with the sedevacantists" about this.
Fr. Chazal without hesitation rejects SP and SV in his book.
I also agree that Bergoglio is a heretic.
The difference is that Chazal and I (along with JST, Cajetan, Billiart, Suarez, etc) believe the Church can have an heretical pope until his deposition is declared, and you do not.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2020, 07:54:27 PM »
Fr. Chazal without hesitation rejects SP and SV in his book.
I also agree that Bergoglio is a heretic.
The difference is that Chazal and I (along with JST, Cajetan, Billiart, Suarez, etc) believe the Church can have an heretical pope until his deposition is declared, and you do not.

No, the part you miss, Sean, is that Father Chazal states that this heretical pope has no authority, is impounded, and needs to be categorically ignored.  That lack of authority is the sedeprivationist equivalent of ceasing to be Pope formally, while retaining material office.  Father Chazal repeatedly used language like he sits there in the chair and wears white but has no authority.  That's very closely akin to sedeprivationism despite his denials.  He denounces SP in his book because it's a knee-jerk reaction, but when you analyze his position it's nearly identical.  SSPX and former SSPX have been brainwashed into regarding SV as this nasty boogeyman that must be avoided at all costs so he feels obligated to reject it in so many words, despite actually articulating principles very much akin to SP.  SP, by the way, is not SV ... despite the fact that +Sanborn has spun it that way because he only reluctantly accepted SP because +McKenna would not consecrate him otherwise.  But after his consecration he started peddling a flavor of SP that was more SV than it was true SP.

Classical R&R holds that the Pope has formal authority and must be obeyed in all things that do not run contrary to faith or morals, but can and must be resisted in those things that do.

Father Chazal's position is closer to SP than to classical R&R.

Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2020, 12:26:40 PM »
No, the part you miss, Sean, is that Father Chazal states that this heretical pope has no authority, is impounded, and needs to be categorically ignored.  That lack of authority is the sedeprivationist equivalent of ceasing to be Pope formally, while retaining material office.  Father Chazal repeatedly used language like he sits there in the chair and wears white but has no authority.  That's very closely akin to sedeprivationism despite his denials.  He denounces SP in his book because it's a knee-jerk reaction, but when you analyze his position it's nearly identical.  SSPX and former SSPX have been brainwashed into regarding SV as this nasty boogeyman that must be avoided at all costs so he feels obligated to reject it in so many words, despite actually articulating principles very much akin to SP.  SP, by the way, is not SV ... despite the fact that +Sanborn has spun it that way because he only reluctantly accepted SP because +McKenna would not consecrate him otherwise.  But after his consecration he started peddling a flavor of SP that was more SV than it was true SP.

Classical R&R holds that the Pope has formal authority and must be obeyed in all things that do not run contrary to faith or morals, but can and must be resisted in those things that do.

Father Chazal's position is closer to SP than to classical R&R.
If Sanborn isn’t a good representative of SP, who is?( you’ve made comments to that effect several times but haven’t pointed to who this  authentic SP alternative to Sanborn is)

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2020, 12:33:00 PM »
If Sanborn isn’t a good representative of SP, who is?( you’ve made comments to that effect several times but haven’t pointed to who this  authentic SP alternative to Sanborn is)

Yes, I've gone over this on other threads.  +Sanborn presents SP as if it were SV.  Other adherents of the SP position have also pointed this out.