Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano (Read 5359 times)

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2020, 09:06:52 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on June 23, 2020, 08:25:09 PM

Ok.

But Lad's statement is fact, not opinion. If you do not have the Catholic faith, you are outside the Church; you are not Catholic.

And he is not a dogmatic Sedevacantist.

False:

Material heretics are not outside the Church.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #26 on:** June 24, 2020, 05:01:25 AM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2020, 09:06:52 PM

False:

Material heretics are not outside the Church.

But that only means you believe material heretics have the Catholic faith.

In any event, the statement "if you don't have the Catholic faith, you're outside the Church" remains true.

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #27 on:** June 24, 2020, 05:41:49 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on June 24, 2020, 05:01:25 AM

But that only means you believe material heretics have the Catholic faith.

In any event, the statement "if you don't have the Catholic faith, you're outside the Church" remains true.

Material heretics (caveat: 'material heretic' is understood in different ways) may have the Catholic Faith, and it is not up to me to judge!

Also, you left off the punch line from Ladislaus's quote, "...and therefore they do not legitimately hold authority in the Church". I hope you can see from my response that he is at variance in this with some of the greatest minds of the Church. So the statement is clearly not a Catholic one.

There are many distinctions in Catholic theology. An answer in a catechism is only the briefest of summaries of sometimes complex subjects that fill whole libraries in theological works, and these catechism answers are subject to many clarifications and distinctions.

Let me give just one example that relates to your assertion "if you don't have the Catholic Faith, you're outside the Church": St Robert Bellarmine, discussing the second of his famed 'five opinions', "that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God", replies "that the foundation of this opinion is that secret heretics are outside the Church, which is false". So immediately you can see that your assertion is not unconditionally true.

Struthio · « **Reply #28 on:** June 24, 2020, 07:14:04 AM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on June 24, 2020, 05:41:49 AM

Material heretics (caveat: 'material heretic' is understood in different ways) may have the Catholic Faith, and it is not up to me to judge!

Here a more helpful approach:

Manifest material heretics just like manifest formal heretics do not (outwardly) profess the Catholic Faith and therefore don't belong to (the body of) the Church. That's independent of the specific definition of the distiction between material vs. formal heretic.

Occult material heretics just like occult formal heretics do (outwardly) profess the Catholic Faith and therefore do belong to (the body of) the Church.

Since we're not able to read hearts, we can't judge whether s.o. is or is not an occult heretic. On the other hand we can judge whether s.o. is or is not a manifest heretic, and we should do so where necessary to avoid false Gospels and sacrilege.

Manifest heretics can't belong to (the body of) the Church, since the Church visibly (and audibly) professes one Faith.

2Vermont · « **Reply #29 on:** June 24, 2020, 07:37:34 AM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2020, 09:06:52 PM

False:

Material heretics are not outside the Church.

Is Francis merely a material heretic?

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Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano (Read 5359 times)

SeanJohnson

Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano

DecemRationis

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Plenus Venter

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Struthio

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2Vermont

Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano