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Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano  (Read 4940 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« on: June 23, 2020, 07:14:22 AM »
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    • Letter of support from Bishop Thomas Aquinas




    +

    PAX


    Excellency,

    It is from Brazil that I am writing to congratulate you on your writing of June 9. Your lucidity and courage have edified and comforted us a lot.

    I was ordained by H.E.Mgr. Marcel Lefebvre in 1980 and consecrated bishop by H.E. Bishop Richard Williamson in 2016. I live in Brazil, at the Benedictine Monastery of the Holy Cross (Mosteiro da Santa Cruz, in Portuguese) of which I am the superior. Here we have always followed the directions of Mgr. Lefebvre, who has always fought both modernism and sedevacantism.

    We appreciated your clarity in denouncing the "Parallel Church" that a cardinal named "Conciliar Church". Although this reality is very difficult to define, we are faced with two distinct realities, with distinct ends, distinct doctrines, distinct morals, distinct liturgies, etc., despite the fact that only one Pope is at the head of the two churches, which protects one (the modernist) and persecutes the other (the catholic).

    In a conference, Mgr. Lefebvre said, setting out the questions he would do if he were invited to Rome:

    "Which Church are you? What Church are we dealing with - I would like to know - if I am dealing with the Catholic Church, or if I am dealing with another Church, a Counter-Church, a counterfeit of the Church? … Now, I sincerely believe that we are dealing with a forgery of the Church and not with the Catholic Church. Why? Because they no longer teach the Catholic faith. They no longer defend the Catholic faith. Not only do they no longer teach the Catholic faith and no longer defend the Catholic faith, but they teach something else, they lead the Church into something other than the Catholic Church. It is no longer the Catholic Church. They sit on the seat of their predecessors, all these cardinals who are in the congregations and all these secretaries who are in these congregations or at the secretary of state; they sit well where their predecessors were, but they do not continue their predecessors. They no longer have the same faith, the same doctrine, or the same morals as their predecessors. So it's no longer possible. And mainly, their big mistake is ecuмenism. They teach an ecuмenism that is contrary to the Catholic faith. They teach an ecuмenism that is contrary to the Catholic faith. They teach an ecuмenism that is contrary to the Catholic faith" (Conference to seminarians, June 8, 1978).

    Bishop de Castro Mayer was no less explicit:

    "We would say that the best way to abandon the Church of Christ, the Roman Apostolic Catholic Church, is to accept without reservation what was taught and proposed by Vatican Council II. It is the Anti-Church. "(Heri and Hodie Journal nº33 - September 1986). This quote from Bishop de Castro Mayer has been translated from Portuguese.

    Before closing, I assure you again of my support, my prayers and the prayers of all the monks of our monastery as well as those of the faithful who are with us and of Brazilian seminarians of Tradition.

    Wishing you the courage that only God can give, I assure you, Excellency, of my entire devotion.

    In the Sacred Heart and in the Immaculate Heart,

    + Tomás de Aquino, OSB
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #1 on: June 23, 2020, 08:43:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2020, 07:14:22 AM

    Here we have always followed the directions of Mgr. Lefebvre, who has always fought both modernism and sedevacantism.

    This is garbage.  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and rather sympathetic to the thesis that these men might not be legitimate popes.  This is obviously a ploy to try to dissuade Vigano from going in that direction.  I suspect that the Bishop here got the same sedevacantist vibes from Vigano's letter that I did.

    He continues to peddle that head of two Churches crap that R&R developed in an act of desperation.  Sure Berogoglio is the head of a counter-Church while at the same time being the head of the Catholic Church.  This is pure theological trash.

    I'd love to see Vigano slap this down.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #2 on: June 23, 2020, 08:47:39 AM »
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    • That quote from +Lefebvre sounds more like an articulation of sedeprivationism, that they materially occupy the positions of their predecessors but do not have the same faith.

    If they do not have the faith, they are not Catholic.  If they are not Catholic, they do not legitimately hold authority in the Church.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #3 on: June 23, 2020, 08:50:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:43:20 AM
    This is garbage.  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and rather sympathetic to the thesis that these men might not be legitimate popes.  This is obviously a ploy to try to dissuade Vigano from going in that direction.  I suspect that the Bishop here got the same sedevacantists vibes from Vigano's letter that I did.

    He continues to peddle thos head of two Churches crap that R&R developed in an act of desperation.  Sure Berogoglio is the head of a counter-Church while at the same time being the head of the Catholic Church.  This is pure theological trash.

    I'd love to see Vigano slap this down.
    I am beginning to see the damage of calling someone "pope" simply in recognition of the fact that a heretic is seated in the chair of Peter. I think that goes to the heart of the Sedevacantist objection, and I see it's merit and its consistency. 
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #4 on: June 23, 2020, 08:58:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 23, 2020, 08:50:02 AM
    I am beginning to see the damage of calling someone "pope" simply in recognition of the fact that a heretic is seated in the chair of Peter. I think that goes to the heart of the Sedevacantist objection, and I see it's merit and its consistency.

    I am OK with calling him a Pope out of acknowledgement of the reality that he materially occupies the See.  Vigano of course constantly referred to him simply as Bergoglio.  But to keep claiming that these men don't have the faith but then have legitimate authority in the Church, it's total desperation, an emotional reaction against sedevacantism ... but it's totally bankrupt.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #5 on: June 23, 2020, 09:00:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
    I am OK with calling him a Pope out of acknowledgement of the reality that he materially occupies the See.  Vigano of course constantly referred to him simply as Bergoglio.  But to keep claiming that these men don't have the faith but then have legitimate authority in the Church, it's total desperation, an emotional reaction against sedevacantism ... but it's totally bankrupt.
    Yes. As I said, it is becoming clearer to me, and apparently others - Vigano it seems also - as time goes by. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #6 on: June 23, 2020, 09:06:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:43:20 AM
    This is garbage.  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and rather sympathetic to the thesis that these men might not be legitimate popes.  This is obviously a ploy to try to dissuade Vigano from going in that direction.  I suspect that the Bishop here got the same sedevacantist vibes from Vigano's letter that I did.
    And he'll drop him like a hot potato if he does.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #7 on: June 23, 2020, 09:10:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
    I am OK with calling him a Pope out of acknowledgement of the reality that he materially occupies the See.  Vigano of course constantly referred to him simply as Bergoglio.  But to keep claiming that these men don't have the faith but then have legitimate authority in the Church, it's total desperation, an emotional reaction against sedevacantism ... but it's totally bankrupt.
    Does the Archbishop call Pope Benedict XVI as "Ratzinger"? 
    I heard, that it was common for Italians to refer to the Pope by their family name.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #8 on: June 23, 2020, 09:29:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:43:20 AM
    This is garbage.  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and rather sympathetic to the thesis that these men might not be legitimate popes.  This is obviously a ploy to try to dissuade Vigano from going in that direction.  I suspect that the Bishop here got the same sedevacantist vibes from Vigano's letter that I did.

    He continues to peddle that head of two Churches crap that R&R developed in an act of desperation.  Sure Berogoglio is the head of a counter-Church while at the same time being the head of the Catholic Church.  This is pure theological trash.

    I'd love to see Vigano slap this down.
    .
    Ideally, if Vigano responded, he would point out exactly what you have here: that the Archbishop was no committed enemy of sedevacantism. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #9 on: June 23, 2020, 09:48:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:43:20 AM
    This is garbage.  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and rather sympathetic to the thesis that these men might not be legitimate popes.  This is obviously a ploy to try to dissuade Vigano from going in that direction.  I suspect that the Bishop here got the same sedevacantist vibes from Vigano's letter that I did.

    He continues to peddle that head of two Churches crap that R&R developed in an act of desperation.  Sure Berogoglio is the head of a counter-Church while at the same time being the head of the Catholic Church.  This is pure theological trash.

    I'd love to see Vigano slap this down.

    Completely false:

    He banned them from admission to the SSPX and made them sign a docuмent pledging their prayer for the pope and rejection of sedevacantism.

    That on two occasions he made statements which could be construed as allowing for the theoretical possibility of sedevacantism (statements made in time of grave scandal, but which never caused him to altar his 1981 Pledge, and which he never reaffirmed when relative tranquility returned) is a long way from saying he was “open to and sympathetic” to a position he officially shunned.

    It should be obvious that Bishop Thomas understands they position of Lefebvre on this matter.

    I think you are upset that Bishop Thomas restated Lefebvre’s position to Vigano, as it hurts your hopes the latter would go sede.  But there never really were any hopes Vigano was going in that direction anyway.  The fact that he refers to Francis as Bergoglio is a human failing stemming from personal indignation, nor the indication of sedevacantist leanings you were hoping for.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #10 on: June 23, 2020, 10:00:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:47:39 AM
    That quote from +Lefebvre sounds more like an articulation of sedeprivationism, that they materially occupy the positions of their predecessors but do not have the same faith.

    If they do not have the faith, they are not Catholic.  If they are not Catholic, they do not legitimately hold authority in the Church.
    Yes, yes: If we can’t make Lefebvre a sedevacantist, we will make him a closet sedevacantist (sedeprivationist).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #11 on: June 23, 2020, 10:01:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 23, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
    I am OK with calling him a Pope out of acknowledgement of the reality that he materially occupies the See.  Vigano of course constantly referred to him simply as Bergoglio.  But to keep claiming that these men don't have the faith but then have legitimate authority in the Church, it's total desperation, an emotional reaction against sedevacantism ... but it's totally bankrupt.
    Unless Cajetan, JST, Billuart, Billot, Bellarmine, Torquemada, Vitoria, et al are right!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #12 on: June 23, 2020, 10:24:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 23, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
    .
    Ideally, if Vigano responded, he would point out exactly what you have here: that the Archbishop was no committed enemy of sedevacantism.

    Isn’t it a little absurd to expect Vigano to presume to correct SSPXers and Resistance clergy and bishops on Lefebvre’s position on sedevacantism?

    Should Vigano need to look any further than the official policy in place for the last 40 years, which precludes sedevacantism ad infra?

    In any case, we may know soon enough, since I emailed Vigano Bishop Thomas Aquinas’s letter.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #13 on: June 23, 2020, 10:39:13 AM »
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    Ideally, if Vigano responded, he would point out exactly what you have here: that the Archbishop was no committed enemy of sedevacantism. 
    Ideally, if Vigano is serious about waking up the billions of novus ordo sheeple, the last thing on his agenda would be to spend time on the petty arguments of traditionalists and on what +ABL did or didn't mean.  What matters is the hear and now.  If Vigano comes out tomorrow and says that Francis isn't the pope, this has nothing to do with +ABL's comments, because he was dead before Francis was even elected.  So the debate will rage on, endlessly.  There's so many bigger fish to fry.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #14 on: June 23, 2020, 11:26:05 AM »
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    • Any predictions on how many pages this thread will go?   :laugh1:
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