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Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano  (Read 5335 times)

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Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2020, 12:56:30 PM »
Yes, I've gone over this on other threads.  +Sanborn presents SP as if it were SV.  Other adherents of the SP position have also pointed this out.
Yes so who articulates the position clearly and authentically? The position you articulated above seems reasonable but I wouldn’t call it SP- Francis is still materially Pope( insofar as we recognize his material occupancy  of the chair and resist him, the position could still be classed as a variant of R&R- albeit not “classical R&R” as you put it) 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2020, 03:18:58 PM »
Yes so who articulates the position clearly and authentically? The position you articulated above seems reasonable but I wouldn’t call it SP- Francis is still materially Pope( insofar as we recognize his material occupancy  of the chair and resist him, the position could still be classed as a variant of R&R- albeit not “classical R&R” as you put it)

Here's one example.  +Sanborn persists in his dogmatism regarding not putting una cuм in the Canon.  But if someone is materially Pope-designate, it would not necessarily be inappropriate to insert his name in the Canon with the una cuм.  So for him the material occupancy is meaningless, whereas the classic SP would be very similar to what Father Chazal articulated in terms of the implications of the material occupation, that the Pope (or Pope-designate) remains the visible sign of unity for the Church.  He's also backed away from the notion that the current Cardinals could legitimately elect a pope or that Bergoglio could convert and resume the papacy.  So it you take those implications out of the mix, the distinction between SV and SP become meaningless.

Part of the SP mentality has to do with the notion that only the Church has the authority to handle the matter with any degree of finality, and that stance is largely incompatible with dogmatic sedevacantism.  SP is by its nature a much more moderate variant of sedevacantism, and it actually addresses many of the R&R objections against sedevacantism proper.


Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2020, 03:32:21 PM »
Here's one example.  +Sanborn persists in his dogmatism regarding not putting una cuм in the Canon.  But if someone is materially Pope-designate, it would not necessarily be inappropriate to insert his name in the Canon with the una cuм.  So for him the material occupancy is meaningless, whereas the classic SP would be very similar to what Father Chazal articulated in terms of the implications of the material occupation, that the Pope (or Pope-designate) remains the visible sign of unity for the Church.  He's also backed away from the notion that the current Cardinals could legitimately elect a pope or that Bergoglio could convert and resume the papacy.  So it you take those implications out of the mix, the distinction between SV and SP become meaningless.

Part of the SP mentality has to do with the notion that only the Church has the authority to handle the matter with any degree of finality, and that stance is largely incompatible with dogmatic sedevacantism.  SP is by its nature a much more moderate variant of sedevacantism, and it actually addresses many of the R&R objections against sedevacantism proper.
I have had discussions with other sede friends and we also believe Bishop Sanborns stance on the una-cuм is inconsistent with the Cassiciacuм Thesis.  I do agree with him about una cuм though...i will no longer assist at a mass una cuм a heretic.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2020, 06:58:19 PM »
I have had discussions with other sede friends and we also believe Bishop Sanborns stance on the una-cuм is inconsistent with the Cassiciacuм Thesis.  I do agree with him about una cuм though...i will no longer assist at a mass una cuм a heretic.

No, it's possible to be SP and offer Mass without the una cuм, but it's not consistent with CT to be dogmatic about it and denounce those who insert it as basically non-Catholic.  You need to be careful not to slide into schismatic dogmatic sedevacantism.  At the end of the day, we don't have the authority to excommunicate from the Church.  There were clearly many heretics in the Church before Vatican II.  So, for instance, Cardinal Cushing of Boston was every bit as heretical as any of the post-V2 papal claimants.  But a priest would not have a right to omit his name from the Canon because he judged him a heretic.  Inserting his name into the Canon was a statement that the priest remained in submission to the Church's hierarchy and not an attestation regarding the personal orthodoxy of Cushing.

I think the dogmatic sedes might do well to reflect on this particular scenario to test their dogmatic sedeism.

Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2020, 07:47:03 PM »
You [2Vermont] need to be careful not to slide into schismatic dogmatic sedevacantism.

So what? You, Ladislaus, you already slid into "schismatic dogmatic anti-(dogmatic sedevacantism)".

Yeti tried to explain it to you recently in your Jenkins-thread. But unfortunately you don't even listen. You haven't been careful and thus already got lost in "schismatic dogmatic anti-(dogmatic sedevacantism)".

 :fryingpan: :jester:


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