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Author Topic: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano  (Read 4530 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2020, 11:28:43 AM »
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  • Isn’t it a little absurd to expect Vigano to presume to correct SSPXers and Resistance clergy and bishops on Lefebvre’s position on sedevacantism?

    Should Vigano need to look any further than the official policy in place for the last 40 years, which precludes sedevacantism ad infra?

    In any case, we may know soon enough, since I emailed Vigano Bishop Thomas Aquinas’s letter.
    Is emailing Vigano that easy?  Is his email address public knowledge?  Maybe this explains why he has written so many letters in the last couple of weeks.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #16 on: June 23, 2020, 12:11:39 PM »
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  • Is emailing Vigano that easy?  Is his email address public knowledge?  Maybe this explains why he has written so many letters in the last couple of weeks.

    Well, he set up this website to post his Appeal, and you can submit comments to it.

    He (or his associates) May or may not be still monitoring it.

    https://veritasliberabitvos.info/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #17 on: June 23, 2020, 12:43:01 PM »
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  • Ideally, if Vigano is serious about waking up the billions of novus ordo sheeple, the last thing on his agenda would be to spend time on the petty arguments of traditionalists and on what +ABL did or didn't mean.  What matters is the hear and now.  If Vigano comes out tomorrow and says that Francis isn't the pope, this has nothing to do with +ABL's comments, because he was dead before Francis was even elected.  So the debate will rage on, endlessly.  There's so many bigger fish to fry.

    Exactly.  It's absurd to attempt to inject that controversy into Viagano's awakening process.  Bishop Thomas Aquinas seems to oppose Modernism with Sedevacantism, implying that they're almost equal-but-opposite errors.  It's like taking a person who's just converting to Traditional Catholicism and then immediately to start hitting him in the face with different camps vying for whether the person should become R&R or sedevacantist.  If nothing else, that'll just turn them off to the entire thing and confuse them.  It's almost like Thomas Aquinas is trying to immediately win him over to the Resistance camp before he's even necessarily finished his own awakening process.

    I would object just as much if Father Jenkins had written him and started promoting the SSPV and trying to explain why the SSPX are no good.
    There was no place for that in this letter.

    Just thank him for the June 9 letter, encourage him in the conclusions that were on the mark, and let him work it out gradually over time.  I honestly don't care where he ends up ultimately, as long as he holds fast to the principles articulated in his June 9th letter.  What I'm hoping for is that he somehow puts them into action ... whether he becomes sedevacantist (ala Bellarmine) or starts a movement in the NO to ministerially depose Francis (ala Cajetan and John of St. Thomas).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #18 on: June 23, 2020, 12:49:52 PM »
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  • I did not mean by my earlier comment that it would be ideal for Vigano and Bishop Aquinas to have some protracted dialogue about Lefebvrist exegesis.  I agree with Ladislaus' interpretation of Aquinas's opening paragraph, that it was petty and suggestive.  I wouldn't want to see Vigano write a response that argued the point.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #19 on: June 23, 2020, 04:40:58 PM »
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  • I think you are upset that Bishop Thomas restated Lefebvre’s position to Vigano, as it hurts your hopes the latter would go sede.  But there never really were any hopes Vigano was going in that direction anyway.  The fact that he refers to Francis as Bergoglio is a human failing stemming from personal indignation, nor the indication of sedevacantist leanings you were hoping for.
    An alternate explanation exists for Vigano's calling Bergoglio that name, an explanation related neither to indignation nor sede leanings.
    He may be aware of the election of Siri to the papacy in the 1958 conclave, his acceptance, his taking the name Pope Gregory XVII, the outside message from Bnai Brith threatening to kill all hierarchy behind the Iron Curtain, his "resignation" which was invalid according to Canon Law.
    Vigano may be aware of the successors to Pope Gregory XVII who are in hiding. Vigano may be aware that since 1958 the true Catholic Church has been underground and the apostate anti-Church has been in the hands of Freemasons/ Communists/Satanists.
    Vigano may be aware that the Church founded by Jesus Christ has been in ECLIPSE since 1958 and the Church has been under the reign of the anti-christ.

    https://whitesmoke1958.com

    theimmaculateheart.com/gregoryXVII.htm
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #20 on: June 23, 2020, 08:01:09 PM »
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  • If they do not have the faith, they are not Catholic.  If they are not Catholic, they do not legitimately hold authority in the Church.
    Here is summed up by Ladislaus the essential problem of sedevacantism, a problem that Archbishop Lefebvre understood, but Ladislaus, sadly, does not.

    The sedevacantist effectively sets himself up as pope. He takes this opinion, expressed by Ladislaus, and promulgates it as absolute, definitive, dogmatic, binding on the Catholic conscience. Just as we see above. He adds something to the Catholic Faith. That is not Catholic. It is neither 'absurd', nor 'petty' to want to keep someone from embracing such an error, of which the Dominicans of Avrille said in their Small Catechism of Sedevacantism: "This is a position that has not been proven at the speculative level, and it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.”

    The folly of such a line of conduct should be immediately obvious by considering the opinion of just a few eminent theologians and canonists:

    1. BILLUART: "The more common opinion holds that Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he should be declared a manifest heretic by the Church" - De Fide, Diss V, A III No 3 Obj 2

    2. GARRIGOU-LAGRANGE: "...a secretly heretical Pope would not remain a member of the Church in act (...) but he would keep the jurisdiction by which he has influence over the Church by governing it. Thus he would keep the reason (or nature) of being the head towards the Church, on which he would have an influence, but he would cease to be a member of Christ, the invisible and First Head. Thus, in a most abnormal fashion, he would be the head of the Church by jurisdiction, but he would not be a member.

    "This would be impossible if it would be about a physical head, but this is not contradictory if we talk about a secondary moral head: The reason being whereas a physical head cannot exercise influence on the members without receiving the vital influx of the soul; a moral head, as the Roman Pontiff is, can exercise a jurisdiction on the Church even if he receives no influence of internal faith and charity from the soul of the Church.

    "So, as Billuart says, the pope is constituted a member of the Church by his personal faith, that he can lose, and the head of the visible Church by jurisdiciton and the power that can coexist with internal heresy..." - De Christo Salvatore, 1946, p232  Note: Fr Garrigou-Lagrange is obviously only referring to internal heretics, but it is relevant to the quote from Ladislaus.

    3. JOHN OF ST THOMAS: "So long as it has not been declared to us juridically, that he is an infidel or heretic, be he ever so manifestly heretical according to private judgment, he remains, as far as we are concerned (quoad nos), a member of the Church and consequently its head. Judgment is required by the Church. It is only then that he ceases to be Pope as far as we are concerned" - Cursus Theologici II-II, De Auctoritate Summi Pontificis, Disp II, Art III, De Depositione Papa

    4. FR PAUL LAYMANN SJ: "It is more probable that the Supreme Pontiff, as concerns his own person, could fall into heresy, even a notorious one, by reason of which he would deserve to be deposed by the Church, or rather declared to be separated from her. (...) Observe, however, that, though we affirm that the Supreme Pontiff, as a private person, might be able to become a heretic and therefore cease to be a true member of the Church, (...) nevertheless, for as long as the Pope is tolerated by the Church and publicly recognised as the universal pastor, he is still endowed, in fact, with his power as pontiff, in such a way that all his decrees would have no less force and authority than they would if he were truly faithful" - Theol. Mor. Bk 2 Tract 1 Ch 7 p153

    5. SUAREZ: "I affirm: If he is a heretic and incorrigible, the Pope ceases to be Pope as soon as a declarative sentence of his crime is pronounced against him by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church (...) In the first place, who should pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it should be the Cardinals; and the Church could undoubtedly assign this faculty to them, above all if it were established with the consent and decision of the Supreme Pontiffs, just as was done for the election. But to this day we do not read anywhere that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, it must be affirmed that of itself it belongs to all the Bishops of the Church. For since they are the ordinary pastors and pillars of the Church, one should consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law, there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter involves some Bishops more than others, and since, according to human law, nothing has been established in the matter, it must necessarily be held that the matter should be referred to all of them, and even to a general council. This is the common opinion of the doctors. One can read Cardinal Albano expounding upon this point at length in De Cardinalibus (q.35, 1584 ed, vol 13, p2)" - De Fide, Disp 10, Sect 6, n 10, pp 317-18

    6. CAJETAN: "... a heretical Pope is not deprived (of the Papacy) by divine or human law... Other bishops if they become heretics are not deprived ipso facto by divine or human law; therefore, neither is the Pope. The conclusion is obvious, because the Pope is not in a worse situation than other bishops - On the Comparison of the Authority of Pope and Council, Ch XIX

    7. BELLARMINE: "...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff" - De Membris Ecclesiae, Lib I De Clericis, Cap 7 (Opera Omnia, Paris: Vives, 1870, pp 428-429)  Obviously not referring to the Pope, but still relevant to Ladislaus's quote.

    "I honestly don't care where he ends up ultimately" (Ladislaus). I do. I hope he ends up in the truth. It matters! It has implications for the salvation of souls... "a position that has not been proven at the speculative level,.. it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.”





























































































    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 08:09:26 PM »
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  • Here is summed up by Ladislaus the essential problem of sedevacantism, a problem that Archbishop Lefebvre understood, but Ladislaus, sadly, does not.

    The sedevacantist effectively sets himself up as pope. He takes this opinion, expressed by Ladislaus, and promulgates it as absolute, definitive, dogmatic, binding on the Catholic conscience. Just as we see above. He adds something to the Catholic Faith. That is not Catholic. It is neither 'absurd', nor 'petty' to want to keep someone from embracing such an error, of which the Dominicans of Avrille said in their Small Catechism of Sedevacantism: "This is a position that has not been proven at the speculative level, and it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.”

    The folly of such a line of conduct should be immediately obvious by considering the opinion of just a few eminent theologians and canonists:

    1. BILLUART: "The more common opinion holds that Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he should be declared a manifest heretic by the Church" - De Fide, Diss V, A III No 3 Obj 2

    2. GARRIGOU-LAGRANGE: "...a secretly heretical Pope would not remain a member of the Church in act (...) but he would keep the jurisdiction by which he has influence over the Church by governing it. Thus he would keep the reason (or nature) of being the head towards the Church, on which he would have an influence, but he would cease to be a member of Christ, the invisible and First Head. Thus, in a most abnormal fashion, he would be the head of the Church by jurisdiction, but he would not be a member.

    "This would be impossible if it would be about a physical head, but this is not contradictory if we talk about a secondary moral head: The reason being whereas a physical head cannot exercise influence on the members without receiving the vital influx of the soul; a moral head, as the Roman Pontiff is, can exercise a jurisdiction on the Church even if he receives no influence of internal faith and charity from the soul of the Church.

    "So, as Billuart says, the pope is constituted a member of the Church by his personal faith, that he can lose, and the head of the visible Church by jurisdiciton and the power that can coexist with internal heresy..." - De Christo Salvatore, 1946, p232  Note: Fr Garrigou-Lagrange is obviously only referring to internal heretics, but it is relevant to the quote from Ladislaus.

    3. JOHN OF ST THOMAS: "So long as it has not been declared to us juridically, that he is an infidel or heretic, be he ever so manifestly heretical according to private judgment, he remains, as far as we are concerned (quoad nos), a member of the Church and consequently its head. Judgment is required by the Church. It is only then that he ceases to be Pope as far as we are concerned" - Cursus Theologici II-II, De Auctoritate Summi Pontificis, Disp II, Art III, De Depositione Papa

    4. FR PAUL LAYMANN SJ: "It is more probable that the Supreme Pontiff, as concerns his own person, could fall into heresy, even a notorious one, by reason of which he would deserve to be deposed by the Church, or rather declared to be separated from her. (...) Observe, however, that, though we affirm that the Supreme Pontiff, as a private person, might be able to become a heretic and therefore cease to be a true member of the Church, (...) nevertheless, for as long as the Pope is tolerated by the Church and publicly recognised as the universal pastor, he is still endowed, in fact, with his power as pontiff, in such a way that all his decrees would have no less force and authority than they would if he were truly faithful" - Theol. Mor. Bk 2 Tract 1 Ch 7 p153

    5. SUAREZ: "I affirm: If he is a heretic and incorrigible, the Pope ceases to be Pope as soon as a declarative sentence of his crime is pronounced against him by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church (...) In the first place, who should pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it should be the Cardinals; and the Church could undoubtedly assign this faculty to them, above all if it were established with the consent and decision of the Supreme Pontiffs, just as was done for the election. But to this day we do not read anywhere that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, it must be affirmed that of itself it belongs to all the Bishops of the Church. For since they are the ordinary pastors and pillars of the Church, one should consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law, there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter involves some Bishops more than others, and since, according to human law, nothing has been established in the matter, it must necessarily be held that the matter should be referred to all of them, and even to a general council. This is the common opinion of the doctors. One can read Cardinal Albano expounding upon this point at length in De Cardinalibus (q.35, 1584 ed, vol 13, p2)" - De Fide, Disp 10, Sect 6, n 10, pp 317-18

    6. CAJETAN: "... a heretical Pope is not deprived (of the Papacy) by divine or human law... Other bishops if they become heretics are not deprived ipso facto by divine or human law; therefore, neither is the Pope. The conclusion is obvious, because the Pope is not in a worse situation than other bishops - On the Comparison of the Authority of Pope and Council, Ch XIX

    7. BELLARMINE: "...if the pastor is a bishop, they (the faithful) cannot depose him and put another in his place. For Our Lord and the Apostles only lay down that false prophets are not to be listened to by the people, and not that they depose them. And it is certain that the practice of the Church has always been that heretical bishops be deposed by bishop's councils, or by the Sovereign Pontiff" - De Membris Ecclesiae, Lib I De Clericis, Cap 7 (Opera Omnia, Paris: Vives, 1870, pp 428-429)  Obviously not referring to the Pope, but still relevant to Ladislaus's quote.

    "I honestly don't care where he ends up ultimately" (Ladislaus). I do. I hope he ends up in the truth. It matters! It has implications for the salvation of souls... "a position that has not been proven at the speculative level,.. it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.”

    You need to put the word "dogmatic" before Sedevacantist. 

    As it is, you take an opinion about a certain type of Sedevacantist, as expressed by yourself, and promulgate it as definitive, dogmatic, binding on the Catholic conscience.

    Or something like that.

     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 08:14:38 PM »
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  • You need to put the word "dogmatic" before Sedevacantist.

    As it is, you take an opinion about a certain type of Sedevacantist, as expressed by yourself, and promulgate it as definitive, dogmatic, binding on the Catholic conscience.

    Or something like that.

     
    Thanks, DR, I take your point, and I agree. But Lad's statement is in fact not expressed as an opinion.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #23 on: June 23, 2020, 08:23:19 PM »
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  • Does the Archbishop call Pope Benedict XVI as "Ratzinger"?
    I heard, that it was common for Italians to refer to the Pope by their family name.
    Italians use the pope's surname, always preceded by "papa" as in Papa Sarto, Papa Pacelli etc. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #24 on: June 23, 2020, 08:25:09 PM »
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  • Thanks, DR, I take your point, and I agree. But Lad's statement is in fact not expressed as an opinion.
    Ok. 

    But Lad's statement is fact, not opinion. If you do not have the Catholic faith, you are outside the Church; you are not Catholic. 

    And he is not a dogmatic Sedevacantist. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #25 on: June 23, 2020, 09:06:52 PM »
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  • Ok.

    But Lad's statement is fact, not opinion. If you do not have the Catholic faith, you are outside the Church; you are not Catholic.

    And he is not a dogmatic Sedevacantist.

    False:

    Material heretics are not outside the Church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #26 on: June 24, 2020, 05:01:25 AM »
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  • False:

    Material heretics are not outside the Church.
    But that only means you believe material heretics have the Catholic faith. 

    In any event, the statement "if you don't have the Catholic faith, you're outside the Church" remains true. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #27 on: June 24, 2020, 05:41:49 AM »
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  • But that only means you believe material heretics have the Catholic faith.

    In any event, the statement "if you don't have the Catholic faith, you're outside the Church" remains true.
    Material heretics (caveat: 'material heretic' is understood in different ways) may have the Catholic Faith, and it is not up to me to judge!


    Also, you left off the punch line from Ladislaus's quote, "...and therefore they do not legitimately hold authority in the Church". I hope you can see from my response that he is at variance in this with some of the greatest minds of the Church.  So the statement is clearly not a Catholic one.


    There are many distinctions in Catholic theology. An answer in a catechism is only the briefest of summaries of sometimes complex subjects that fill whole libraries in theological works, and these catechism answers are subject to many clarifications and distinctions.


    Let me give just one example that relates to your assertion "if you don't have the Catholic Faith, you're outside the Church": St Robert Bellarmine, discussing the second of his famed 'five opinions', "that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God", replies "that the foundation of this opinion is that secret heretics are outside the Church, which is false". So immediately you can see that your assertion is not unconditionally true.



    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #28 on: June 24, 2020, 07:14:04 AM »
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  • Material heretics (caveat: 'material heretic' is understood in different ways) may have the Catholic Faith, and it is not up to me to judge!

    Here a more helpful approach:

    Manifest material heretics just like manifest formal heretics do not (outwardly) profess the Catholic Faith and therefore don't belong to (the body of) the Church. That's independent of the specific definition of the distiction between material vs. formal heretic.

    Occult material heretics just like occult formal heretics do (outwardly) profess the Catholic Faith and therefore do belong to (the body of) the Church.

    Since we're not able to read hearts, we can't judge whether s.o. is or is not an occult heretic. On the other hand we can judge whether s.o. is or is not a manifest heretic, and we should do so where necessary to avoid false Gospels and sacrilege.


    Manifest heretics can't belong to (the body of) the Church, since the Church visibly (and audibly) professes one Faith.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Letter of +Thomas Aquinas to ++Vigano
    « Reply #29 on: June 24, 2020, 07:37:34 AM »
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  • False:

    Material heretics are not outside the Church.
    Is Francis merely a material heretic?