Author Topic: There will be no SSPX-Rome accord (Read 4745 times)

Skunkwurxsspx · « **on:** February 02, 2014, 06:54:23 PM »

Because one will not be necessary at the rate the SSPX is going with the "re-branding"/internal reform.

This fruit will simply drop on the palms of ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic Rome when ripe. Hence the bold assurance that there will be no accord. They're right.

"Corrupt from within," . . . that seems to be the new tactic . . . just like a spider's venom breaks down the muscle tissues of its prey, turning them into easily ingestible pulp, leaving only the exoskeleton (the outer shell/structure) intact. (Don't mean to gross anyone out with the creepy analogy, but couldn't think of anything less . . . "graphic.")

I think Menzingen quickly smartened up to the fact that the "thinking" folks of the SSPX would not stand for an accord (i.e., the uprising of the Resistance), so it seems they're taking the long and gradual road of erosion from within in order to render the SSPX effectively toothless.

As many of you have already expressed, maybe it would have been better had an accord been signed, affording us a clean break into two clearly defined camps . . . but the devil is greedy . . . as is modernist Rome, fast-becoming the Seat of the Anti-Christ.

If we're not going to be fighting modernism and kicking up a storm, what good are we? . . . FSSP-Lite???

fast777 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2014, 08:39:57 PM »

It's like slicing the salami pretty soon there's none left. But even though disease is evident the SSPX is not terminal yet.

Pray for the SSPX because this is what they are up against.....

‘As long as there remains any moral conception of the social order, and until all faith, patriotism, and dignity are uprooted, our reign over the world shall not come. We have already fulfilled part of our work, and yet we cannot claim that the whole of our work is done. We still have a long way to go before we can overthrow our main opponent, the Catholic Church.
‘We must always bear in mind that the Catholic Church is the only institution which has stood, and which will, as long as it remains in existence, stand in our way. The Catholic Church, with its methodical work and her edifying moral teachings will always keep her children in such a state of mind as to make them too self-respecting to yield to our domination. That is why we have been striving to discover the best way of shaking the Catholic Church to her very foundations. We have spread the spirit of revolt and false liberalism among the nations so as to persuade them away from their faith and even to make them ashamed of professing the precepts of their religion, and obeying the commandments of their Church.
‘We have brought many of them to boast of being atheists, and more than that, to glory in being descendants of the ape! We have given them new theories, impossible of realisation, such as Communism, anarchism, and Socialism, which are now serving our purposes. They have accepted them with the greatest enthusiasm, without realising that those theories are ours, and that they constitute the most powerful instrument against themselves.
‘We have blackened the Catholic Church with the most ignominious calumnies, we have stained her history, and disgraced even her noblest activities. We have imparted to her the wrongs of her enemies, and have brought these latter to stand more closely by our side. So much so that we are now witnessing, to our greatest satisfaction, rebellions against the Church in several countries. We have turned her clergy into objects of hatred and ridicule, we have subjected them to the hate of the crowd. We have caused the practice of the Catholic religion to be considered out of date and a mere waste of time. We have founded many secret associations which work for our purpose, under our orders and our directions.
‘So far, we have considered our strategy in our attacks upon the Church from the outside. But this is not all. Let us explain how we have gone further in our work to hasten the ruin of the Catholic Church, and how we have penetrated into her most intimate circles, and have brought even some of her clergy to be pioneers of our cause:
‘Apart from the influence of our philosophy, we have taken other steps to secure a breach in the Catholic Church. Let me explain how this has been done. We have induced some of our children to join the Catholic body with the explicit intention that they should work in a still more efficient way for the disintegration of the Catholic Church, by creating scandals within her.
‘We are grateful to Protestants for their loyalty to our wishes, although most of them are, in the sincerity of their faith, unaware of their loyalty to us. We are grateful to them for the wonderful help they are giving us in our fight against the stronghold of Christian civilisation, and in our preparations for the advent of our supremacy over the whole world.
‘So far we have succeeded in overthrowing most of the thrones of Europe. The rest will follow in the near future. Russia has already worshipped our rule. France is under our thumb. England, in her dependence upon our finance, is under our heel; and in her Protestantism is our best hope for the destruction of the Catholic Church. Spain and Mexico are but toys in our hands. And many other countries, including the United States of America; have already fallen before our scheming.
‘But the Catholic Church is still alive. We must destroy her without the least delay and without the slightest mercy. Most of the Press of the world is under our control. Let us intensify our activities. Let us spread the spirit of revolution in the minds of the people.
‘They must be made to despise patriotism and the love of their family, to consider their faith as a humbug, their obedience to the Church as a degrading servility, so that they may become deaf to the appeal of the Church and blind to her warnings against us. Let us, above all, make it impossible for Christians outside the Catholic Church to be re-united with her, or for non-Christians to join the Church; otherwise our domination over them will never be realised.’ - 1936 a convention of secret societies held in Paris

Mind you that John XXIII began what most said could never happen...and now Francis....who shows to be brazen....we all need to pray and fight.

Skunkwurxsspx · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2014, 08:47:35 PM »

Quote from: TimeToFight

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx
As many of you have already expressed, maybe it would have been better had an accord been signed, affording us a clean break into two clearly defined camps ...

What, exactly, are those two camps ?

Why are each of them valid (or why is the SSPX position invalid) ?

I was speaking in the abstract, but I envisioned the staunch Resistance camp staying true to the mission of ABL on one hand and the Fellay camp which would morph into some indistinguishable FSSP-Lite variant, gradually blending into irrelevance.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2014, 06:49:19 AM »

Quote from: fast777

It's like slicing the salami pretty soon there's none left. But even though disease is evident the SSPX is not terminal yet.

The SSPX is toast.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2014, 06:50:20 AM »

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx

I was speaking in the abstract, but I envisioned the staunch Resistance camp staying true to the mission of ABL on one hand and the Fellay camp which would morph into some indistinguishable FSSP-Lite variant, gradually blending into irrelevance.

The difference between the neo-SSPX and FSSP is now only one of degree and not substance.

dreamtomorrow · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2014, 07:51:45 AM »

I see what you mean and agree! Then I wonder what the "fruit" of the rushed rosary crusade will be...

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2014, 08:54:36 AM »

Quote from: TimeToFight

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx
I was speaking in the abstract, but I envisioned the staunch Resistance camp staying true to the mission of ABL on one hand and the Fellay camp which would morph into some indistinguishable FSSP-Lite variant, gradually blending into irrelevance.

The difference between the neo-SSPX and FSSP is now only one of degree and not substance.

Agreed.

More important, the difference between the SSPX; the Neo-SSPX; the SSPX Marian Corps; SaveOurSSPX; The Recusant; the Resistance, is zero. In forty years, all of them put together have produced nothing but words. Soon they will all be toast. Ok, drag the "soon" out into "sooner or later", and we get stale toast.

TimeToFight: XYZ -- your ~~ignorance~~ stupidity is showing. I'd say ignorance, but everyone with a brain knows that the Resistance (and the synonyms for the Resistance which you listed) have only been around for less than 2 years!

Except for the SSPX, none of the others existed 40 years ago. What are you smoking?

And I don't think it's open for debate that the difference between the neo-SSPX and the Resistance is "zero". If that were true (which it isn't), they wouldn't have two different names.

I know, Mr. Staunch Sedevacantist, they're both Recognize and Resist (boo hoo hoo), but there are certainly differences between them -- which means you can't say "zero". You're violating the truth.

If you can say that about the SSPX and its affiliated groups, the same could be said of the Sedevacantist and other independent groups. Who is it that you so admire?

I mean, what Sedevacantist or Independent group has "set the world on fire" with a blazing flame of activism and Catholic Action?

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of Catholic activism from the old-school SSPX priests. We're talking CONVERTING people -- not from other flavors of "trad" but from everything under the sun!

But if you're blaming the SSPX for not having "solved the Crisis" during 40 years (which is God's job, by the way, not any man's), certainly every Sedevacantist and independent bishop and organization would be implicated as well in this failure.

It's pretty silly though, to point at your opposition and cry, "You're not 'us'! If it weren't for you, all Trads would be 'us' and we could have gotten somewhere!"

Because you know what? The SSPX could cry the same thing about all the sede and independent groups. So that argument is neither here nor there.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2014, 09:01:05 AM »

Quote from: TimeToFight

More important, the difference between the SSPX; the Neo-SSPX; the SSPX Marian Corps; SaveOurSSPX; The Recusant; the Resistance, is zero.

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2014, 09:07:38 AM »

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans

Quote from: TimeToFight
More important, the difference between the SSPX; the Neo-SSPX; the SSPX Marian Corps; SaveOurSSPX; The Recusant; the Resistance, is zero.

I know; it feels like the average IQ on CathInfo just dropped several points.

I feel less intelligent for having read that post...

soulguard · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2014, 09:11:31 AM »

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx

As many of you have already expressed, maybe it would have been better had an accord been signed, affording us a clean break into two clearly defined camps . . . but the devil is greedy . . . as is modernist Rome, fast-becoming the Seat of the Anti-Christ.

If the anti-Christ was the pope in rome, would you still think he was a valid pope?
:reporter:

soulguard · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2014, 09:32:31 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

TimeToFight: XYZ -- your ~~ignorance~~ stupidity is showing. I'd say ignorance, but everyone with a brain knows that the Resistance (and the synonyms for the Resistance which you listed) have only been around for less than 2 years!

Except for the SSPX, none of the others existed 40 years ago. What are you smoking?

You might be eager to justify the resistance to him Matthew, but there is no need to insult the man. He is not a drug addict just because he questions the resistance. If Resistance priests want him to go long distances to their masses and put money in the collection plate, and even stay away from the SSPX, they better justify it to him, and to me as well.

Quote from: Matthew

And I don't think it's open for debate that the difference between the neo-SSPX and the Resistance is "zero". If that were true (which it isn't), they wouldn't have two different names.

I know, Mr. Staunch Sedevacantist, they're both Recognize and Resist (boo hoo hoo), but there are certainly differences between them -- which means you can't say "zero". You're violating the truth.

Who says Sedevacantists cry (boo hoo hoo???) over the SSPX?
You make it out as if we have no right to question the tactics of recognize and resist.
The SSPX has been RORing since it began and the fact that it still recognizes the false popes is the reason for its downfall. The vatican is in apostasy, every trad knows this. It is those who refuse to break away from its influence who are the cause of the downfall of groups like the SSPX. They would hardly reconcile with Rome if most of their laity thought Rome was a false church and Francis a false pope would they? Dont lay the seeds of their downfall and then blame others when it happens, you support "Pope Francis" just as much as the novus ordo does, and you are still part of the conciliar church if you think its leader is your leader.

Quote from: Matthew

If you can say that about the SSPX and its affiliated groups, the same could be said of the Sedevacantist and other independent groups. Who is it that you so admire?

I mean, what Sedevacantist or Independent group has "set the world on fire" with a blazing flame of activism and Catholic Action?

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of Catholic activism from the old-school SSPX priests. We're talking CONVERTING people -- not from other flavors of "trad" but from everything under the sun!

The SSPX thinks they convert everyone who goes to their masses. They try to convert me. How arrogant is it to presume that the SSPX is the only place in which to learn the faith. I was converted by the Indult. The sedevacantists are setting the trad world on fire, because SVism is now more and more popular. The recognize and resist position is being shown to be untenable.

Quote from: Matthew

But if you're blaming the SSPX for not having "solved the Crisis" during 40 years (which is God's job, by the way, not any man's), certainly every Sedevacantist and independent bishop and organization would be implicated as well in this failure.

It's pretty silly though, to point at your opposition and cry, "You're not 'us'! If it weren't for you, all Trads would be 'us' and we could have gotten somewhere!"

Because you know what? The SSPX could cry the same thing about all the sede and independent groups. So that argument is neither here nor there.

You are wrong. Faith is proved by actions. It takes actions from us to solve the crisis. If we sit on our hands and do nothing and hope God will fix it for us, not only do we not help those trying to solve the crisis, but we are heretics following Quietism.

Also, the cardinals are freemasons. The pope is probably a freemason. That means that the freemasons have taken over, and since they wont elect a pope outside of the college of cardinals, because they want other freemasons to get the job, then the freemasons have taken power and will hold on to it indefinitely.

The least you could do is admit that by refusing to be part of hierarchy we face no threat to the faith, yet the SSPX and now the Resistance make the same crippling mistake, they want to be part of the hierarchy, to be at least able to say that there is a pope.

soulguard · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2014, 09:36:39 AM »

Quote from: TimeToFight

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx
Quote from: TimeToFight
Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx
As many of you have already expressed, maybe it would have been better had an accord been signed, affording us a clean break into two clearly defined camps ...

What, exactly, are those two camps ?

Why are each of them valid (or why is the SSPX position invalid) ?

I was speaking in the abstract, but I envisioned the staunch Resistance camp staying true to the mission of ABL on one hand and the Fellay camp which would morph into some indistinguishable FSSP-Lite variant, gradually blending into irrelevance.

What (in your opinion) is the "mission of ABL", what exactly is it that the Resistance is so staunch about ?

What is the doctrinally sound basis for that mission or position ?

He asks good questions that any newcomer should ask if he cares about the faith.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2014, 11:11:17 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: TimeToFight
More important, the difference between the SSPX; the Neo-SSPX; the SSPX Marian Corps; SaveOurSSPX; The Recusant; the Resistance, is zero.

I know; it feels like the average IQ on CathInfo just dropped several points.

I feel less intelligent for having read that post...

Maybe I can make it up to you, Matthew. I feel more intelligent having read yours.

CathInfo exists because of your influence. Everything that's good about CathInfo has reality because of what YOU have done to make it happen. Everyone who enjoys CathInfo is indebted to YOU for its existence. Everyone who sees something good in CathInfo, by extension, sees something good in you, too. Your resolve to make CathInfo a viable forum has been what has pulled it through tough times in the past. There will "always" be someone out there who disagrees with you whenever you take a stand on something like this, but you have not (so far) let that hold you back from taking such a stand when you've weighed the options.

Thank you for making CathInfo what it is.

What it is.

.

Matthew · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2014, 11:24:00 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

You might be eager to justify the resistance to him Matthew, but there is no need to insult the man. He is not a drug addict just because he questions the resistance. If Resistance priests want him to go long distances to their masses and put money in the collection plate, and even stay away from the SSPX, they better justify it to him, and to me as well.

You flunk reading comprehension.

I wasn't arguing pro-Resistance, or trying to convince him of the virtues of the Resistance.

I was saying that it isn't honest (intellectually or otherwise) to claim that the Resistance and the Neo-SSPX are interchangeable; that there is "zero difference" between them.

You might disagree with both, but that doesn't make them equal!

I disagree with Buddhists and Lutherans. So is it accurate or honest to claim that there is ZERO DIFFERENCE between Lutherans and Buddhists?

It was a ridiculous statement to make, and I called him on it.

Matthew · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2014, 11:29:21 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

The SSPX thinks they convert everyone who goes to their masses. They try to convert me. How arrogant is it to presume that the SSPX is the only place in which to learn the faith. I was converted by the Indult. The sedevacantists are setting the trad world on fire, because SVism is now more and more popular. The recognize and resist position is being shown to be untenable.

There have been real conversions wrought by every stripe of Catholic organization. Indult, SSPX, Sedevacantist, independent, etc.

That isn't the point.

The point is that we're still in Crisis, and whose fault is it?

"TimeToFight" acts as if no one has done what they were supposed to yet, and as proof of that he presents the ongoing Crisis in the Church -- as if there's some way we men can fix up the Church without God's help.

What else could he mean by his quote? "In forty years, all of them [SSPX] put together have produced nothing but words."

He sure can't be talking about "results" short of rectifying the Crisis, because it's obvious to anyone with a brain that the SSPX has done plenty of "real work" (conversions, etc.) -- they have certainly held their own in this category compared to, say, the sedevacantists.

Why not acknowledge the truth, good man? I will readily admit that sedevacantist priests have done real work and made conversions. Why can't you acknowledge the same thing in the SSPX, even when the evidence stares you in the face?

The SSPX has schools, retreat centers, seminaries, and most of their priests (up till very recently) were very apostolic, converting actual pagans and protestants to traditional Catholicism -- not just poaching fellow trads from rival camps.

So on all counts he's simply wrong.

You can do the right thing for years and still get minimal results. Doing the right thing does NOT always equal results. Maybe in the business sphere it does. But not in the religious sphere.

It's virtuous and admirable to have zeal for the Truth. It's not so admirable to be a fanboy or cheerleader for "your team", especially when that involves ignoring or distorting the truth.