Author Topic: There Is No Red Light (Read 10632 times)

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #45 on:** March 17, 2013, 08:39:34 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

This is another admission that, as of this moment, there can be no red light.

I never said that we are in a red light situation universally.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2013, 08:41:16 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Depends on your motive:

If the goal is to save the SSPX, internal resistance is the primary and most effective method.

If your goal is to fleece the SSPX of as many clergy and laity to start an independent organization, your method is best.

I do not think that SSPX priests should automatically jump ship. However, I do think they need to start speaking out for the sake of the faithful. Can Bishop Fellay, for example, run his SSPX if he keeps pinging priests?

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #47 on:** March 17, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Still waiting for you to show me where the rejected preamble has become official SSPX policy.

It is official SSPX policy de facto.

No.

Yes. But don't you think for a minute that the SSPX leadership will say that they have changed their position. They will harp that this has always been the SSPX's position.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #48 on:** March 17, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Can you please quote me some doctrine to back that groundless opinion?

What?

Repeat.

I don't understand what you are asking by your question.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #49 on:** March 17, 2013, 09:10:04 AM »

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans

Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Still waiting for you to show me where the rejected preamble has become official SSPX policy.

It is official SSPX policy de facto.

No.

Yes. But don't you think for a minute that the SSPX leadership will say that they have changed their position. They will harp that this has always been the SSPX's position.

Interesting that you chose to ignore the entire response in your one word quote, but i understand why you needed to in order to maintain your position.

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #50 on:** March 17, 2013, 09:39:16 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Still waiting for you to show me where the rejected preamble has become official SSPX policy.

It is official SSPX policy de facto.

No.

The whole argument is Fr Pfeiffer's contention that the rejected doctrinal preamble is official SSPX policy, which precludes all attendance at all SSPX chapels.

You have backed that perspective.

Your response in this post is an admission that there is no such policy, in which case attendance at SSPX chapels cannot reasonably be prohibitive, except on a case by case basis.

If tomorrow Bishop Fellay was to make a public statement that all priests were hereforward to adhere to his Doctrinal Preamble, the required actions on the part of the priests would be no different that it today, that is, study the Preamble and shortly thereafter make a decision whether to accept or reject it. For those who reject it, they must say so publicly, regardless of the consequences.

Matthew · « **Reply #51 on:** March 17, 2013, 11:34:48 AM »

On the contrary, I would suggest that the tacit assumption would be that any SSPX priest wants to follow the traditional SSPX position laid down by Abp. Lefebvre, and written in the official SSPX statutes.

If some other position is to be held, it needs to be officially promulgated.

The Accordistas seem to understand this -- they frequently inject into their sermons, classes, articles, and interviews more "pro-Rome", "pro-Pope", "pro-Vatican II" elements, because they know that most of the Faithful don't necessarily share their opinions...yet.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #52 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:03:47 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Telesphorus
The SSPX priests shouldn't be regarded as being subject to Bishop Fellay as though he were really an ordinary with legitimate authority.

What matters is that the priests consider themselves subject to him.

No.

What matters is that they are looked to fight until a formal policy against the faith forces them out.

They should fight openly and stop being anonymous.

So they can be picked off and neutralized.

Not a very good plan, tactically.

I'll bite here.

Imagine the priests that were threatened when they asked their superiors to say the Immemorial Mass, with losing their pensions and their place to live. "Picked off," eh? Why don't you ask the people that were supposedly "picked off" in the novus ordo church if it was worth it for them to do that? Most of them that were courageous enough to speak up were rewarded by God that they did speak up and don't regret their decision to DO THE RIGHT THING!

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #53 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:06:02 PM »

Quote from: Guga

What is an acceptable situation in your parish?

1-   Does your priest speak against the modernists, even if it is the Pope?
2-   Does your priest show the reality of who Bishop Fellay is and what he is doing? If yes, does he condemn it?
3-   Does he update people’s minds on the danger of what represents the actual position of the SSPX leadership?

If the answer is no I might consider it as a yellow light, but depending on the others circuмstances it still could be red light.

Now, dos the priest forbids you to take the actions mentioned above? If the answer is no you have two options:

1-   Speak it out anyways and wait for them to take the decision
2-   Leave and create the resistance yourself even if there is no priest, even if there is no one else with you.

You should never put yourself in a situation where you can’t speak out loudly no matter what. And it does not count to speak out anonymously on the Internet and not speaking out on your real life.

AMEN TO THIS!

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #54 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:47:01 PM »

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans

Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Still waiting for you to show me where the rejected preamble has become official SSPX policy.

It is official SSPX policy de facto.

No.

The whole argument is Fr Pfeiffer's contention that the rejected doctrinal preamble is official SSPX policy, which precludes all attendance at all SSPX chapels.

You have backed that perspective.

Your response in this post is an admission that there is no such policy, in which case attendance at SSPX chapels cannot reasonably be prohibitive, except on a case by case basis.

If tomorrow Bishop Fellay was to make a public statement that all priests were hereforward to adhere to his Doctrinal Preamble, the required actions on the part of the priests would be no different that it today, that is, study the Preamble and shortly thereafter make a decision whether to accept or reject it. For those who reject it, they must say so publicly, regardless of the consequences.

In other words, you concede that the preamble is not official policy today, and therefore to cite it as a trigger for throwing up an SSPX-wide red light is ridiculous.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #55 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Seraphim
Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
Quote from: Telesphorus
The SSPX priests shouldn't be regarded as being subject to Bishop Fellay as though he were really an ordinary with legitimate authority.

What matters is that the priests consider themselves subject to him.

No.

What matters is that they are looked to fight until a formal policy against the faith forces them out.

They should fight openly and stop being anonymous.

So they can be picked off and neutralized.

Not a very good plan, tactically.

I'll bite here.

Imagine the priests that were threatened when they asked their superiors to say the Immemorial Mass, with losing their pensions and their place to live. "Picked off," eh? Why don't you ask the people that were supposedly "picked off" in the novus ordo church if it was worth it for them to do that? Most of them that were courageous enough to speak up were rewarded by God that they did speak up and don't regret their decision to DO THE RIGHT THING!

Please stick to the subject if you wish to participate.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #56 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:52:03 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Guga
What is an acceptable situation in your parish?

1-   Does your priest speak against the modernists, even if it is the Pope?
2-   Does your priest show the reality of who Bishop Fellay is and what he is doing? If yes, does he condemn it?
3-   Does he update people’s minds on the danger of what represents the actual position of the SSPX leadership?

If the answer is no I might consider it as a yellow light, but depending on the others circuмstances it still could be red light.

Now, dos the priest forbids you to take the actions mentioned above? If the answer is no you have two options:

1-   Speak it out anyways and wait for them to take the decision
2-   Leave and create the resistance yourself even if there is no priest, even if there is no one else with you.

You should never put yourself in a situation where you can’t speak out loudly no matter what. And it does not count to speak out anonymously on the Internet and not speaking out on your real life.

AMEN TO THIS!

I will be sure to remember this advice the next time I attend the resistance Mass, which would not occur in my locale but for my initial outreach to Fr Pfeiffer.

Matto · « **Reply #57 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:26:40 PM »

I wonder what would happen if this policy were made official and SSPX priests were required to sign an oath affirming it.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #58 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:47:18 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I wonder what would happen if this policy were made official and SSPX priests were required to sign an oath affirming it.

50% attrition.

Matto · « **Reply #59 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:57:58 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

50% attrition.

You think that many would leave? I hope you are right that so many would leave. That would make for a strong resistance. I only really know two SSPX priests personally, so I have little knowledge about the Society in general except for what I read on the internet.