Author Topic: The Will of God vs Pain (Read 1234 times)

Matthew · « **on:** November 07, 2014, 07:30:41 AM »

Some of us might be tempted to think that The Will of God and Pain are the exact same thing. No, God isn't a sadist!

Sometimes doing the will of God requires sacrifice. And yes, in the economy of salvation, to save souls, certain discomforts must be borne to merit the graces necessary. These discomforts include vigils (losing sleep), extended periods of prayer, corporal mortification, fasting, pebbles in shoes, the hairshirt, abstaining from good things, etc.

HOWEVER

If I were to assume that "the more discomfort and pain, the better" then I would be sadly mistaken.

Which would make me happy? Having a happy marriage, or living through a divorce and family breakup post-adultery? Happiness is a weakness and a condescension to selfishness, right? Should I then sabotage my marriage so I don't have too much happiness on earth? Am I being selfish by enjoying a harmonious marriage?

Of course not! A happy marriage is not only preferable to me, but it's God's first choice as well! Even if I wanted to be the greatest of saints, I couldn't do ANY BETTER IN THIS DEPARTMENT than to keep my marriage running smoothly. In fact, I'd be REDUCING my standing in God's eyes if I purposely sabotaged my marriage to offer more "suffering for souls".

Moral of the story: Something good for you, if it's God's will, is not being selfish!

Hmm... I wonder, does this include weekly Mass?

As a corollary, a mother of seven children would be committing actual SIN if she absented herself from the home too much to spend more time in prayer. The Will of God for her is to raise her children and help them become saints. Even something good (hours of prayer) would be a bad thing because it's not in line with her duty of state.

Second Moral: The Will of God is not simplistic or one-size-fits-all. The Will of God is whatever God wills for you personally!

Some parts of His Will are universal (e.g., following the commandments, meriting heaven) but when it comes to duty of state, it depends on the person and his particular circuмstances. That's where all the mystery and uncertainty about God's Will comes in! To determine these more mysterious parts of God's Will (e.g., what is my vocation, where should I go to Mass) we must pray and exercise the virtue of Prudence.

Pilar · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2014, 09:21:56 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Some of us might be tempted to think that The Will of God and Pain are the exact same thing. No, God isn't a sadist!

Sometimes doing the will of God requires sacrifice. And yes, in the economy of salvation, to save souls, certain discomforts must be borne to merit the graces necessary. These discomforts include vigils (losing sleep), extended periods of prayer, corporal mortification, fasting, pebbles in shoes, the hairshirt, abstaining from good things, etc.

HOWEVER

If I were to assume that "the more discomfort and pain, the better" then I would be sadly mistaken.

Which would make me happy? Having a happy marriage, or living through a divorce and family breakup post-adultery? Happiness is a weakness and a condescension to selfishness, right? Should I then sabotage my marriage so I don't have too much happiness on earth? Am I being selfish by enjoying a harmonious marriage?

Of course not! A happy marriage is not only preferable to me, but it's God's first choice as well! Even if I wanted to be the greatest of saints, I couldn't do ANY BETTER IN THIS DEPARTMENT than to keep my marriage running smoothly. In fact, I'd be REDUCING my standing in God's eyes if I purposely sabotaged my marriage to offer more "suffering for souls".

Moral of the story: Something good for you, if it's God's will, is not being selfish!

Hmm... I wonder, does this include weekly Mass?

As a corollary, a mother of seven children would be committing actual SIN if she absented herself from the home too much to spend more time in prayer. The Will of God for her is to raise her children and help them become saints. Even something good (hours of prayer) would be a bad thing because it's not in line with her duty of state.

Second Moral: The Will of God is not simplistic or one-size-fits-all. The Will of God is whatever God wills for you personally!

Some parts of His Will are universal (e.g., following the commandments, meriting heaven) but when it comes to duty of state, it depends on the person and his particular circuмstances. That's where all the mystery and uncertainty about God's Will comes in! To determine these more mysterious parts of God's Will (e.g., what is my vocation, where should I go to Mass) we must pray and exercise the virtue of Prudence.

It is a well known principle that one may not do an evil to accomplish a good, regarding your analogy of the marriage. However, attending Mass at the SSPX is not an evil and no one has yet proven that it is. Therefore, it would be preferable to attend Sunday Mass, or daily for that matter, at a Society chapel than to refuse to avail oneself of the infinite graces from the Holy Sacrifice. There are reasons that excuse from Mass on Sunday, but it seems that many of us are excusing ourselves in anticipation of what the SSPX leadership may do in the future. It seems a master stroke of the devil that at this time in history, when darkness is spreading everywhere and the light of Faith is being systematically snuffed out by the Pope himself, that we are refusing the very thing that can keep us in good stead.

Padre Pio said:

"IF we only knew how God regards this Sacrifice, we would risk our lives to be present at a single Mass.

"Renew your Faith by attending Holy Mass".

"Every Holy Mass, heard with devotion, produces in our souls marvelous effects, abundant spiritual and material graces which we ourselves, do not know."

"The Mass in infinite like Jesus...Ask an angel what the Mass is, and he will reply to you in truth, "I understand what it is and why it is offered but I do not, however, understand how much value it has."

"The earth could exist more easily without the sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass."

We are told in prophecy that there will come a time when the Holy Sacrifice will be taken away. With the N.O. for many that time has come. But we who are traditional still have the opportunity to attend Holy Mass. We should attend it while we can and store up graces in our souls for darker times ahead.

John Grace · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2014, 09:27:24 AM »

Pilar

Quote

but it seems that many of us are excusing ourselves in anticipation of what the SSPX leadership may do in the future

And what are your thoughts on what the SSPX has already done?

Quote

We are told in prophecy that there will come a time when the Holy Sacrifice will be taken away.

Can you expand on what you mean?

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2014, 10:02:15 AM »

Good points, Pilar.

When I said, "I wonder, does this include weekly Mass?" I was passing over the red light-yellow light debate.

In other words, let's assume the red-lighters are correct, for the sake of discussion. So, for them, Resistance-affiliated Masses are the only option. Would they be selfish to desire weekly Mass while others in more remote (or less organized) areas don't get Mass more than once a year?

Would they be wrong to invite a priest to stay in their area and offer weekly/daily Mass, or would that be selfish?

It appears at least one Resistance priest thinks so. I believe he is clear-cut, objectively wrong about this. I believe Catholic Doctrine is all in my favor on this matter.

You can't be "selfish" about something God wants for you. Even if that thing has good points for you on a natural level (comfort, consolation, graces, etc.)

Hugging my children is certainly not distasteful. But God also wants me to show love for my children, so they can better understand what love is. A parent's love for their children teaches them about God's love.

Not all privation is meritorious suffering. What if I wanted to deprive myself of the Mass voluntarily as a sacrifice? Would that be according to God's will? Catholic Doctrine says emphatically "NO!". Why?

John Grace · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2014, 10:24:05 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Good points, Pilar.

When I said, "I wonder, does this include weekly Mass?" I was passing over the red light-yellow light debate.

In other words, let's assume the red-lighters are correct, for the sake of discussion. So, for them, Resistance-affiliated Masses are the only option. Would they be selfish to desire weekly Mass while others in more remote (or less organized) areas don't get Mass more than once a year?

Would they be wrong to invite a priest to stay in their area and offer weekly/daily Mass, or would that be selfish?

It appears at least one Resistance priest thinks so. I believe he is clear-cut, objectively wrong about this. I believe Catholic Doctrine is all in my favor on this matter.

You can't be "selfish" about something God wants for you. Even if that thing has good points for you on a natural level (comfort, consolation, graces, etc.)

Hugging my children is certainly not distasteful. But God also wants me to show love for my children, so they can better understand what love is. A parent's love for their children teaches them about God's love.

Not all privation is meritorious suffering. What if I wanted to deprive myself of the Mass voluntarily as a sacrifice? Would that be according to God's will? Catholic Doctrine says emphatically "NO!". Why?

I took Pilar to mean people are making excuses not to attend SSPX chapels as opposed to legitimate reasons not to attend. Danger to faith etc etc.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2014, 10:37:45 AM »

Quote from: John Grace

I took Pilar to mean people are making excuses not to attend SSPX chapels as opposed to legitimate reasons not to attend. Danger to faith etc etc.

Well you may be right, and that's fine, but I do not want to discuss the red-light yellow-light debate in this thread.

Warning to all members: Any further posts on the "red light, yellow light" topic in this thread will be deleted.

It is very annoying when a thread gets hijacked! Not blaming you, John Grace, but you brought up the "seed" -- and I know how fertile the soil is here!

I'm talking about ANY Catholic seeking weekly Mass as per his own personal qualifications as to what is acceptable. My discussion goes beyond and above the whole "red-light yellow-light" debate on the goodness of attending neo-SSPX Masses.

John Grace · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2014, 10:42:54 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: John Grace

I took Pilar to mean people are making excuses not to attend SSPX chapels as opposed to legitimate reasons not to attend. Danger to faith etc etc.

Well you may be right, and that's fine, but I do not want to discuss the red-light yellow-light debate in this thread.

Any further posts on that topic will be deleted.

It is very annoying when a thread gets hijacked.

We're talking about ANY Catholic seeking weekly Mass as per his own personal qualifications as to what is acceptable. My discussion goes beyond and above the whole "red-light yellow-light" debate on the goodness of attending neo-SSPX Masses.

Before you delete the post, I am rather offended you perceived by post as a hijacking. Are you in bad form? My intent was not to hijack.

Matthew · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2014, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote from: John Grace

Before you delete the post, I am rather offended you perceived by post as a hijacking. Are you in bad form? My intent was not to hijack.

I edited my post (above) to be more clear. I'm sorry it sounded like I was singling you out. That wasn't my intention.

I didn't delete any posts.

Anyhow, your divergence from the topic at hand was minor -- you merely defined or pointed out the "red light yellow light" debate, and I know a lot of members here would pounce on that topic and run with it.

I was not mad at you, nor was I attacking you personally, but rather the other members in the soon-to-be 30 page thread that this thread was to become. I am firmly nipping this in the bud, that's all. I could see where it was headed.

This isn't my first rodeo. I know Trads, and I know CathInfo members.

I started this thread with a very specific point in mind, and I'd like that point to NOT get buried by yet another "red light" debate. Understand where I'm coming from now?

By the way, I'm not in "bad form" whatever that means -- I didn't think a person could be "in bad form". It's bad form to hijack a thread though :)

Carry on...

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2014, 11:30:45 AM »

Call it experience. When the majority of the membership is faced with

A) a novel, interesting and/or subtle point being made
and
B) a highly charged and controversial topic

About 98 out of 100 CathInfo members will gravitate towards B.
A simply can't compete with B, unless someone (the moderator) intervenes.

Especially when A is closely related to a topic like B!

Or, to use an analogy: "A" topics are like vegetable seeds, and "B" topics are like weeds. The latter grow on their own, and out-compete A in every case unless a gardener is there to tend the garden and artificially favor the vegetable plants.

John Grace · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2014, 11:54:13 AM »

Quote

I'm sorry it sounded like I was singling you out. That wasn't my intention.

I welcome the apology.

Quote

I was not mad at you, nor was I attacking you personally

Many thanks for the necessary clarification.

Matthew · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2014, 06:17:36 PM »

I am reminded of a Simpson's episode making fun of fundamentalist protestants (and Christians/religion in general):

The Flanders kids were watching a Christian video. One lamb was sad because he didn't have any sins to be forgiven like his big brother. Then the father lamb resolved the conflict: "But you do have a sin, my son. The sin of envy."

Happily ever after!

We all know it's ridiculous, but someone might make the same mistake -- to give God a chance to forgive us, and thus feel more of His love, should we commit sin? Of course not!

We can never commit evil that good may come of it.