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Author Topic: The virtue of Obedience  (Read 1094 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The virtue of Obedience
« on: May 27, 2018, 10:55:49 AM »
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  • Obedience is a virtue -- coming under the cardinal virtue of Justice, the virtue by which we give to each their due.

    You can sin by defect or excess of this virtue, just like any other.

    Defect is easy. Your parent or superior gives you a command, and you fail to obey.

    For example, if you are a child and your parents/family members insist you open the bathroom door, and you open the door standing there naked. I think this would be a good example of sinning by excess (imprudent, blind) obedience.

    If obeying were as simple as "it came out of my lawful superior's mouth, therefore I do it" obedience wouldn't require much virtue -- it would only require a bit of mortification of our own will. But it wouldn't take any thought or prudence. It would be the blind obedience of the dog or other brute beast.

    What about when obedience conflicts with another, higher virtue? For example when your superior or even the State wants one thing, but God wants another (for preborn babies to live, for example)? You have to either disobey someone who you hold to be a lawful authority -- sifting that authority, as it were -- or blindly obey man and offend God in the process.

    I'm sure this could be applied to the Crisis in the Church as well...
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The virtue of Obedience
    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2018, 11:14:29 AM »
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  • Obedience is a virtue -- coming under the cardinal virtue of Justice, the virtue by which we give to each their due.

    You can sin by defect or excess of this virtue, just like any other.

    Defect is easy. Your parent or superior gives you a command, and you fail to obey.

    For example, if you are a child and your parents/family members insist you open the bathroom door, and you open the door standing there naked. I think this would be a good example of sinning by excess (imprudent, blind) obedience.

    If obeying were as simple as "it came out of my lawful superior's mouth, therefore I do it" obedience wouldn't require much virtue -- it would only require a bit of mortification of our own will. But it wouldn't take any thought or prudence. It would be the blind obedience of the dog or other brute beast.

    What about when obedience conflicts with another, higher virtue? For example when your superior or even the State wants one thing, but God wants another (for preborn babies to live, for example)? You have to either disobey someone who you hold to be a lawful authority -- sifting that authority, as it were -- or blindly obey man and offend God in the process.

    I'm sure this could be applied to the Crisis in the Church as well...

    In the example that you provide above - that a family member insists that the bathroom door be opened, even though the person on the other side is unclothed - this is a good example of not doing what one is told, or why one should not do what one is told. That is, if they know the difference between right and wrong. If the only thing they are ever taught is blind obedience, then yes, that person will open the door, no matter what.

    But what those who believe in blind obedience seem to believe, is that no one who is truly and lawfully in authority would ever ask that the door be opened in the first place. The person in authority would have a high level of perfection (given by the Holy Ghost), and therefore not be capable, in any capacity whatever, of ever giving an order that could be wrong. At least that's how I see their position.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline PositaSecuris

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    Re: The virtue of Obedience
    « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2018, 12:37:44 PM »
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  • All obedience should ultimately be rendered unto God if it is to be a virtue under Justice. If it is not rendered unto God, then it is neither a virtue, nor just, but merely servile or mechanical.

    The authority to command, i.e. make others obey, with which men are endowed is exercised when it itself is obedient. Otherwise the link is broken in the chain of obedience that ultimately leads to God, and the one who commands is no longer vested with authority.

    Authority to command is properly exercised when the one who commands expresses the will of God. The will of God may be expressed more or less generally, for all at all times, such as the command to love God above all things, and to love one's neighbor as one's self, or to particular groups or persons, or at particular times or circuмstances. Thus when Our Lord commanded His Apostles to teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and to teach them to observe His Commandments, or when He told the servants at the Wedding at Cana to fill the clay jars with water.

    All authentic expressions of the will of God concur. Thus it is God's commandments that Christ gave to His Apostles, and they to their successors, expressed in Councils and Catechisms, sermons and laws, laws and customs, by generations of bishops and kings and parents.

    Because man's nature has been corrupted by sin, however, by the disobedience of our first parents prompted by the disobedient angel, at times conflicts of expression occur. A father may command his children to lie or cheat or steal. A king may command his nation and its bishops to recognize him as head of the Church. Laws may be passed the forbid Christianity, or protect and promote sin and vice. A priest or bishop may lead his flock into schism, or heresy, or sacrilege.

    Or the conflict may be in the mind of the subject. Do I provide insurance for my employees that pays for abortion or contraception? Do I attend my relative's or friend's non-Catholic wedding? Do I go to work on Sunday or the Feast of the Assumption?

    When there is a conflict, one must try to discern the will of God. Often the will of God can be discerned from a more reliable source: the Church over the state, faithful practicing parents over secular teachers, the unchanging, immemorial, universal belief and practice of bishops and doctors of the Church and innumerable saints over inconsistent, recent or particular innovations, one's confessor over the internet.

    Note that the discernment must be of the will of God, and the source must be reliable. Conflict or confusion should not be a convenient occasion to justify doing one's own will. Unjust commands do not justify vigilantes. Likewise, one's own opinions are not a reliable source for discerning the will of God.

    Lastly, obedience is a virtue, and like all virtues it is a habit, and habits, whether virtuous or vicious, are developed by repetition over time. One who is habitually disobedient may on occasion be obedient, but will be consistently inclined toward disobedience, especially in grave or important matters. Conversely, one who is habitually obedient may occasionally disobey, but will consistently be inclined to obey, especially in grave and important matters. The habitually disobedient do not worry about obedience, but those have fostered the virtue of obedience sometimes suffer great pangs of conscience, or with longanimity are willing to bear mistreatment by men, for the sake of obedience to the will of God.

    No better example of obedience than Christ, Who was accused by the legitimate religious authorities of His day of breaking the Sabbath and of blasphemy, and by the political authorities of ѕєdιтισn, Who was criticized and abandoned by His own followers, Who sweat blood in submitting to God's will, and Who shed the very last drop of His Precious Blood in fulfilling it.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: The virtue of Obedience
    « Reply #3 on: May 27, 2018, 02:22:31 PM »
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  • Quote from:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/is-father-ringrose-dumping-the-r-r-crowd/msg602201/#msg602201


    "As far as the exercise of Authority, it is strictly addressed in Catholic moral theology.  The proper response to Authority is Obedience.  But the ultimate Authority is God and all Catholics are obligated firstly to obey God.  There are about a dozen subsidiary virtues under the virtue of Justice.  These subsidiary virtues are hierarchically related.  The first and most important virtue under Justice is the virtue of Religion. This virtue primarily concerns giving to God the things that are God's and typically can be quantified by specific acts.  It is the virtue of Religion that governs obedience. Obedience is only a virtue when it is properly regulated by the virtue of Religion.  When it is not, any act of obedience is sinful.  There has hardly been any imposition of Authority since Vatican II that does not directly offend the virtue of Religion and must therefore be opposed."
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline drew

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    Re: The virtue of Obedience
    « Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 08:48:33 PM »
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  • Obedience is a virtue -- coming under the cardinal virtue of Justice, the virtue by which we give to each their due.

    You can sin by defect or excess of this virtue, just like any other.

    Defect is easy. Your parent or superior gives you a command, and you fail to obey.

    For example, if you are a child and your parents/family members insist you open the bathroom door, and you open the door standing there naked. I think this would be a good example of sinning by excess (imprudent, blind) obedience.

    If obeying were as simple as "it came out of my lawful superior's mouth, therefore I do it" obedience wouldn't require much virtue -- it would only require a bit of mortification of our own will. But it wouldn't take any thought or prudence. It would be the blind obedience of the dog or other brute beast.

    What about when obedience conflicts with another, higher virtue? For example when your superior or even the State wants one thing, but God wants another (for preborn babies to live, for example)? You have to either disobey someone who you hold to be a lawful authority -- sifting that authority, as it were -- or blindly obey man and offend God in the process.

    I'm sure this could be applied to the Crisis in the Church as well...

    Matthew,

    I think everyone knows that obedience is only a virtue when properly regulated but few take the time to get a clear idea regarding its regulation.  

    Every Catholic is morally obligated to follow their conscience.  They are also morally obligated to do their best to have a properly formed conscience that is both True and Certain before any moral act.  A True conscience meets the objective criteria, and a Certain conscience is subjectively clear in its judgment.  There exists a range of moral systems to obtain a True conscience.  Of the different moral systems, only Laxism and Rigorism are condemned.  Any Catholic is free to employ any system that lies between these two extremes, and any confessor is obligated to respect this choice even if he personally disagrees.

    Obedience is a subsidiary virtue under the cardinal virtue of Justice.  There are many subsidiary virtues under Justice such as: Religion, Piety, Reverence, Observance, Obedience, Politeness, Truthfulness, Gratitude, Generosity, Vengeance (cognate with the word, vindication), Liberality, Friendship, Epikeia (equity).  These subsidiary virtues are hierarchical related to one another under Justice.  Moral theologians will vary a little in their ranking of these but all will list the Virtue of Religion as the primary virtue under the cardinal virtue of Justice and hold Religion as the governing virtue of Obedience.

    The virtue of Religion is the obligation in Justice to render to God the things that are God's.  It is directly related to the duties imposed by the first three commandments.  It is essential to not only know what the virtue of Religion is, but what are its primary acts and what are the principle vices opposed to the virtue.

    There are several good book on moral theology on line at Internet Archive.  My personal preference is Handbook of Moral Theology by Dominic Prummer, O.P.  It is very concise in one volume, well organized and places emphasis on proper definition and first principles.  It gives about 100 pages to the virtue of Justice (20% of the book) and 42 of these pages cover the virtue of Religion which I think gives some estimation of its importance.  Any act of obedience contrary to the virtue of Religion is an objective sin with varying degrees on imputability.  

    https://archive.org/details/HandbookOfMoralTheology

    Only problem is that pages 96 to 103, Chapter IX, on theological charity and its contrary vices are missing from this digital copy, an important chapter.

    This is a link to an Internet Archive 1912 publication entitled, Catalogue of All Catholic Books published in English.  This is an extensive list of works listed by author, subject, and title+author.  There is a total of 5,521 books listed.  Many of the books are re-publications of works written many years before this publication and many of these books are available on Internet Archive.  The problem has always has been in finding them.  With this reference you will be able to search for a specific book and/or author.  I have found it very helpful in finding great Catholic books that would have been otherwise very difficult to locate.

    https://archive.org/stream/CatalogueOfAllCatholicBooksInEnglish#page/n5/mode/1up

    You can use this to find different works on moral theology and then search Internet Archive for specific titles.
     
    Drew