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Author Topic: The Sphere of Infallibility  (Read 1831 times)

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Offline ConfederateCatholic

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The Sphere of Infallibility
« on: May 02, 2018, 04:23:29 PM »
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #1 on: May 02, 2018, 07:13:19 PM »
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  • This is at the crux of the issue with the Novus Ordo and VII.  While no one here reasonably enjoys modernism, I can say of myself that no one detests it as much as I.  Still, it makes me wonder, did Christ choose to suffer at the hands of the Novus Ordo for the sake of some?  The bishops have agreed for almost 60 years, its a Mass, as has several popes. Trads insist that the NO is evil and cannot be a licit mass, and I cannot argue with them since I have endured the worst cases of it.  Still, we can't neglect to admit that Benedict XVI lamented the abuses therein and not all bishops have gone south even if most are soft enough to build a sofa with.  I've been wondering about this a lot and a passage in Scripture comes to mind: A King invites his people to his banquet but they give him all kinds of excuses not to attend.  So he sends out his servants to bring in the remaining people because those who he called wouldn't come.  With all the division in the trad movement, it makes you wonder, perhaps the day we moved away from defending the LM, and moved into saying the pope isn't the pope or that things the Church practices are evil, the traditional movement crumbled.      


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #2 on: May 02, 2018, 07:27:31 PM »
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  • Even when the bishops are not gathered together in one place, they form the teaching body of the Church, united with the Pope. Therefore their voice must be infallible, otherwise the universal Church would be led into error. For the same reason as above, the daily ordinary uniform teaching of the Church in every place in the whole World is infallibly true.”
     
     “Go into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).
     
    from My Catholic Faith, 1949
     https://catholic-restoration.com/2018/01/07/my-catholic-faith-sphere-of-infallibility/
    Considering that the daily teaching of each individual bishop is not infallible, and in light of the fact that during the Arian crisis the vast majority of the bishops embraced the Arian heresy, what do you think the Church means when it says the bishop's "voice must be infallible"?  Is there a condition required for this infallibility, and if so what is the condition?  
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #3 on: May 02, 2018, 11:37:06 PM »
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  • Considering that the daily teaching of each individual bishop is not infallible, and in light of the fact that during the Arian crisis the vast majority of the bishops embraced the Arian heresy, what do you think the Church means when it says the bishop's "voice must be infallible"?  Is there a condition required for this infallibility, and if so what is the condition?  
    .
    To clarify, most bishops were never Arian. Even if they were, the doctrine of the ordinary magisterium's infallibility pertains to what is taught with moral unanimity-- not what is taught by "many" or even "most.". And as Cantarella points out, the infallibility in question depends on union with the pope (which depends on there BEING a Pope, something which was intermittently doubtful during the Arian crisis).
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 05:45:24 AM »
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  • This is the simple Catholic truth from which many/most of R&R have cut themselves off ... all in order to defend Jorge Bergoglio and his predecessors.

    Good find.
    Catholic truth? :facepalm:


    The "totality of bishops doctrine" is a NO doctrine that, aside from many trads, the conciliar popes and bishops believe to actually be a true doctrine of the Church, which helps explain why they allow and promote the things they do and teach what they teach with audacity. The pope and the bishops actually believe whatever they teach is infallible and infallibly safe and are simply doing their part to widen that narrow road to eternity!

    It's the many trads who are the disobedient sticks in the mud, they say they believe it to be a doctrine of the Church, but at the same time decide the supposed infallible teachings from the totality of bishops are error and heresy. Is it any wonder so many trads are confused?  

    In truth, some post V1 theologians teach this NO error as if it is a defined dogma of the Church, but that's all. Make no mistake, the Church at V1 teaches only the pope is infallible and only when he speaks ex cathedra, all other "extensions of infallibility", including the totality doctrine, are not teachings of the Church and have never been teachings of the Church and are most certainly not a Catholic truth.

    The only official teaching of this NO doctrine is in Lumen Gentium 25.2.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 08:28:54 AM »
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  • To be absolutely and abundantly sure, the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium (what all the bishops teach in union with the pope) is not Novus Ordo doctrine.  It goes back at least to the Vincentian canon and St. Augustine (though admittedly not yet as precisely developed as it was afterward).  It's in Saint Robert Bellarmine, the Doctor of the Papacy and ecclesiologist extraordinaire:
    .
    Quote
    The Church absolutely cannot err, neither in matters absolutely necessary, nor in others which must be believed or proposed that we must do, whether they are expressly held in scriptures or not... [by this we mean] that which all the bishops teach as pertaining to the faith necessarily is true and de fide... if all bishops would err, the whole Church would also err, because the people are held to follow their own pastors, by what Our Lord says in Luke 'He who hears you hears Me' and 'whatsoever they say, do (p. 124, trans. Grant).
    .
    Many solemn texts justify their definitions based on what was universally taught-- Vatican I does this when defining papal infallibility (i.e., as a proof of it they point to the universal activity of the world's bishops), Pope Pius XII does this with the definition of the Assumption, and so on.
    .
    Is it any wonder, given the universality of this teaching, that among Martin Luther's condemned errors is this:
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    Quote
    [Condemned proposition of Martin Luther, no. 28] If the pope with a great part of the Church thought so and so, he would not err; still it is not a sin or heresy to think the contrary, especially in a matter not necessary for salvation, until one alternative is condemned and another approved by a general Council. (Denz. 768 )
    .
    Bellarmine, as do later authors, expound on the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium which is indeed dependent on the pope.  There is only one infallibility at day's end, and it is the pope's, diffusing throughout the Church.  As Parente puts it:
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    Quote
    As man’s life is one but derives from the soul and is diffused through all the body, so infallibility is diffused and circulates in the whole Church, both in the teaching Church and in the learning Church, but dependently on the head (pp. 142-43, trans. Doronzo).


    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 08:44:52 AM »
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  • You are absolutely correct...
    The NO bishops have not seceded from the pope, so this quote from Pope Leo XIII does not pertain to the NO "totality doctrine".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
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  • To be absolutely and abundantly sure, the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium (what all the bishops teach in union with the pope) is not Novus Ordo doctrine.
    Thank you Mith, you are the first one to actually give a good answer. I would like to read St. Robert's entire quote, at least a few paragraphs before and after the quote you provided as it is entirely possible this quote is taken out of context. Also, the solemn teaching of V1 does not wholly agree with his quote.

    The ordinary magisterium is infallible, but per Pope Pius IX, the ordinary magisterium is not whatever all the bishops teach in union with the pope, but if you believe that this is the de fide teaching of the Church, then you are bound under pain of sin to join the NO - because the Church teaches whatever the totality of bishops teach, is infallible.

    Am I being clear with this? I ask because this simple truth has either completely eluded or has been entirely incomprehensible to all sedes no matter how often I repeat it.

    What is so difficult to accept that *if* whatever the totality of bishops teach is infallible or in someway divinely guaranteed to be infallibly safe, then it is impossible for them to preach error, ergo, the NO is not evil, is not a danger to souls, rather, it is a de fide teaching of the Church rendered infallibly safe by virtue of the totality doctrine - and the traditional faith and Mass has got to go.



    Quote
    Many solemn texts justify their definitions based on what was universally taught-- Vatican I does this when defining papal infallibility (i.e., as a proof of it they point to the universal activity of the world's bishops), Pope Pius XII does this with the definition of the Assumption, and so on.
    Please post these two solemn texts.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 09:13:42 AM »
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  • I only used this quote to back up Cantarella's post...  I didn't use it to support anything pertaining to the heresiarchs in the false, conciliar church.  

    I quoted Pope Leo XIII to demonstrate the traditional teaching of the Church...that's all, man.  
    But Pope Leo XIII's quote does not accomplish even that. Cantarella says the bishops are infallible conditionally, the condition being that they are in union with the pope, then whatever they teach is infallible. But Pope Leo XIII is essentially saying that the bishops are the legitimate teachers unless they secede union with the pope, he is not saying they are infallible as long as whatever they teach is dependent upon their being in union with the pope. No?  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #9 on: May 03, 2018, 09:29:37 AM »
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  • Stubborn, here is an at length transcription of the relevant section from Bellarmine.  I trust you'll agree that the ellipses I used do not change the meaning.  I've bolded the parts I quoted, everything in plain text is what I omitted, and any other emphases are in the original.

    (Context: this is against Calvin specifically)
    .

    Quote
    The second restriction [Calvin places on the infallibility of the Church] is that "The Church cannot err" is understood on the universal Church alone, it is not extended to the Bishops who are representatives of the Church, as it is said on the Catholic side.  Every Bishop manages the person of his particular Church and therefore all Bishops manage the person of the whole Church.  So Calvin holds of the greater institution, while in the lesser lesser institution, he fraudulently and mendaciously explains our opinion, saying we advance that the Church cannot err whether it uses the Word of God or not, since still he does not know we do not speak on the word of God absolutely, but only on the written word, and to say that the Church cannot err whether it proposes that which is contained in the SCriptures, or doctrines outside of the Scriptures.

    Next, our opinion is that the Church absolutely cannot err, neither in matters absolutely necessary, nor in others which must be believed or proposed that we must do, whether they are expressly held in the Scriptures or not, and when we say the Church cannot err, we understand that both on the universality of the faithful and on the universality of the Bishops, so that the sense might be of this proposition that the Church cannot err, i.e. that all faithful hold as de fide is necessarily true and de fide, and likewise that which all Bishops teach as pertaining the faith necessarily is true and de fide (trans. Grant, pp. 123-24)
    .
    Next Bellarmine goes on to provide his proofs for the proposition.  There are several pages of this, and his concluding proofs are what were offered after the second ellipses in my quote:
    .

    Quote
    Lastly it [i.e., the infallibility of the bishop's universal teaching] is proven from the Fathers who, as we in the Controversy on the Word of God, in the question on the judge of controversies, all call upon the Church in whatever Question of faith.  Certainly they would not do that if they thought the Church could be deceived in some way.  Tertullian says, "well then, all Churches erred and the Holy Spirit looks to no one."  Augustine said, "We hold to the truth of the Scriptures since we do that which has already pleased the universal Church, which the authority of the Scriptures themselves commends, that because the Holy Scripture cannnot be deceived, whoever fears to be deceived by the obscurity of this question, let him consult the Church about it, as Sacred Scripture points out without any ambiguity.  And [Augustine] again, "He speaks of the most insolent madness to dispute against that which the universal Church senses."

    Now that the Church also cannot err representatively is proven first from the fact that if all Bishops would err, the whole Church would also err, because the people are held to follow this own pastors, by what the Lord says in Luke, "Hew who hears you, hears me," and "Whatsoever they say, do".  Secondly from the epistle of the Council of Epheseus to Nestorius, where Nestorius is compelled if he would satisfy the Church he could swear an oath to attest that he believes just as the Bishops of the East and West do.  Likewise we see that St. Augustine calls the decree of a general Council the consensus of the Universal Church, and rightly so since the Church does not teach that it does not discern anything except through her pastors, just as any body you like through its head.  For that reason, in scripture a congregation of priests and elders is called the assembly (ecclesia) of all Israel.  Chrysostom explains what verse of Matthew XVIII, "Speak to the Church", that is, to a Prelate.  But this has more to do with the tract on Councils. [The chapter ends here] (trans. Grant, pp. 128-29)
    .
    What I left out, I think, only further expounds and clarifies the point Bellarmine is making.  If nothing else, the universal agreement of bishops in union with the pope is not Novus Ordo doctrine.  Bellarmine shows that it goes back to the Fathers, and even to scripture itself.  If you read to the end, he is very clearly distinguishing the sense of this as excluding councils-- he talks about those elsewhere.  He's quite literally only focused on the ordinary magisterium here.
    .
    More in another post.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #10 on: May 03, 2018, 09:30:30 AM »
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  • I agree... I'd like to see it as well.  Also, Mith, what's the source of the quote?
    .
    It's from de Controversiis, Second book (on the Church militant).  Ryan Grant's translation.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #11 on: May 03, 2018, 09:53:24 AM »
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  • Please post these two solemn texts.
    .
    From Vatican I:

    Quote
    [Argument from the assent of the Church]. To satisfy this pastoral duty, our predecessors always gave tireless attention that the saving doctrine of Christ be spread among all the peoples of the earth, and with equal care they watched that, wherever it was received, it was preserved sound and pure. Therefore, the bishops of the whole world, now individually, now gathered in Synods, following a long custom of the churches and the formula of the ancient rule, referred to this Holy See those dangers particularly which emerged in the affairs of faith, that there especially the damages to faith might be repaired where faith cannot experience a failure. * The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according as the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecuмenical Councils or by examining the opinion of the Church spread throughout the world; sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine Providence supplied, have defined that those matters must be held which with God's help they have recognized as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition. For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might faithfully set it forth. Indeed, all the venerable fathers have embraced their apostolic doctrine, and the holy orthodox Doctors have venerated and followed it, knowing full well that the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error, according to the divine promise of our Lord the Savior made to the chief of His disciples: "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren" [Luke 22:32]. (Denz. 1836)

    .
    Regarding the definition of the Assumption, I don't really know how to quote it-- Pope Pius literally gives paragraph after paragraph after paragraph detailing the universal belief and teaching of the Church, although he then culminates with this:
    Quote
    Since the universal Church, within which dwells the Spirit of Truth who infallibly directs it toward an ever more perfect knowledge of the revealed truths, has expressed its own belief many times over the course of the centuries, and since the bishops of the entire world are almost unanimously petitioning that the truth of the bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven should be defined as a dogma of divine and Catholic faith--this truth which is based on the Sacred Writings, which is thoroughly rooted in the minds of the faithful, which has been approved in ecclesiastical worship from the most remote times, which is completely in harmony with the other revealed truths, and which has been expounded and explained magnificently in the work, the science, and the wisdom of the theologians - we believe that the moment appointed in the plan of divine providence for the solemn proclamation of this outstanding privilege of the Virgin Mary has already arrived. (Munificentissimus Deus, §41)
    .
    There are many others, I'm not going to quote them all.  Just peruse Denzinger and look for the rationale solemn texts give for whatever they're discussing.  For instance, here's the Council of Vienne (1312) regarding a controversy over whether or not theological virtues are infused in baptism for infants:

    Quote
    [That] forming grace and virtue are conferred on children as on adults [is the opinion which is] more probable, more consonant, and more in agreement with the words of the saints and the modern doctors of theology (Denz. 483, emphasis added)
    .
    Solemn texts regularly and consistently justify their opinions and definitions based on the opinion or definition's alignment with the ordinary magisterium.  This would be entirely superfolous-- dangerous, even-- if the ordinary magisterium could err.


    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #12 on: May 03, 2018, 11:23:27 AM »
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  • I believe that if you read through Satis Cognitum, it can safely be inferred, that the ordinary teaching authority of the Bishops, united to the principle and center of the unity of faith (the Pope), is free from error.  

    I realize we won't agree on this, but there's my answer to your question.  
    Not having read Mith's post yet, I still maintain the totality doctrine is a NO doctrine, I do not understand pope Leo's quote the way you understand pope Leo's quote, see below...

    If he says what you are saying he says, then it is with faith, with the absolute certainty of faith in that teaching of the Church that we know with certainty that it is absolutely  impossible for a pope, or the bishops in union with the pope, to ever teach error or heresy. Absolutely impossible.....that's if you have faith in that teaching.

    OTOH, if you have no faith at all in that teaching, then you would be guilty of falsely accusing the pope and bishops of teaching heresy to the whole world. I say falsely accuse because although you do not believe it, it is still a teaching of the Church whether you believe it or not.

    This all means that per the Church, there is no possible reason to be sede and that the sedes are in fact wrong in accusing the hierarchy of teaching heresy and having lost their offices as a result - because the Church teaches the pope and bishops in union with him cannot teach error or heresy, which means they have not taught heresy, therefore have not lost their offices and were/are never even at risk of ever losing their office or preaching heresy - all this is according to the teaching of the Church, provided you have faith in that teaching.

    Can we agree on this?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #13 on: May 03, 2018, 11:28:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    Not having read Mith's post yet, I still maintain the totality doctrine is a NO doctrine,

    .
    I suspect that after reading the rest you will be disavowed, at the very least, of thinking this is a Novus Ordo doctrine.  Perhaps you'll think Bellarmine is wrong, but that would be a different argument.
    .
    But in my post even before that, I cited this condemned error of Martin Luther:
    .
    Quote
    [Condemned proposition of Martin Luther, no. 28 from Exsurge Domine] If the pope with a great part of the Church thought so and so, he would not err; still it is not a sin or heresy to think the contrary, especially in a matter not necessary for salvation, until one alternative is condemned and another approved by a general Council. (Denz. 768 )
    .
    I was unaware of this condemnation until recently and am surprised to see that, so far as I can tell, it is never mentioned in these discussions.  I would be curious to see how you or those in agreement with you understand the condemnation. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Sphere of Infallibility
    « Reply #14 on: May 03, 2018, 11:50:06 AM »
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  • The crucial element of infallibility is the legitimate succesor of St. Peter. In Catholicism, it really is all about the Pope!. The lack of a legitimate Pope alone would therefore, explain the many evils.
    Not true. That opinion is a poor excuse to reject the de fide teaching of the Church, the "dogma of faith" as you called it. The truth is, the only thing the opinion of an illegitimate pope indisputably demonstrates, is that you have no faith whatsoever in the dogma of faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse