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Author Topic: The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops  (Read 4500 times)

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Offline Ecclesia Militans

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Offline Neil Obstat

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The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 09:39:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    http://www.mediafire.com/view/?0corzrcddbdxo17


    That's a 7-page docuмent that begins with page 1:


    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans



    February 2013                                                                                                                                                                                                                Page 1 of 7
    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops

    Introduction


    One of the essential requirements prior to being canonically regularized by Rome that the leadership of the Society of
    St. Pius X (SSPX) had proclaimed for many years is that the work of the Society must be free from the control of the
    Diocesan Bishops; otherwise, its very survival would be at stake. A Catholic who is faithful to Tradition and
    understands the gravity of the Church crisis of the last 50 years clearly sees the wisdom of taking this position.

    However, during the year 2012 the SSPX leadership made a dramatic change regarding such an important matter. It
    is the purpose of this paper to demonstrate that this is indeed the case as well as to show some of the absurdities,
    discrepancies, and ambiguities in the speech of the SSPX leaders. The author of this paper believes the reader will
    find the evidence compelling that the current SSPX leadership cannot be trusted, regardless of good intentions, and
    instead must be opposed for the sake of saving the largest organized bastion of Catholic Tradition and many souls
    who will otherwise be like sheep led to the slaughter of Modernist Rome.


    The Record of Events

    1) “We must absolutely convince our faithful that is no more than a maneuver, that it is dangerous to put oneself into
    the hands of Conciliar bishops and Modernist Rome. It is the greatest danger threatening our people. If we have
    struggled for 20 years to avoid the Conciliar errors, it was not in order, now, to put ourselves in the hands of those
    professing these errors.”
    (One Year after the Consecrations: an Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre, Fideliter, July-August 1989 Issue)

    2) In the August 2001 issue of Communicantes (former Canadian SSPX Magazine), there was published an interview
    conducted by Fr. de Tanouarn with His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay in which His Excellency spoke of a
    canonical structure proposed by Rome:

    “You have no doubt heard talk of this idea of an apostolic administration. The Society of St. Pius X would have
    become incorporated into an apostolic administration.
    What does this signify?
    The apostolic administration ordinarily
    is a diocesan structure, or quasi diocesan, in a time of crisis, over a given territory.
    Well! For us this territory would be the entire world.
    In other words, they offered us a structure that covered the entire world, a kind of personal diocese…”

    Fr. de Tanouarn intervened:

    “Excuse me for interrupting, Your Excellency, you mean a personal prelacy…”

    Bishop Fellay responded (this author’s emphasis in bold):

    “Not at all.
    The apostolic administration is better than a personal prelacy.
    In the first place, a personal prelacy is not necessarily governed by a bishop.
    An apostolic administration, which is quasi diocesan, normally would be.
    Furthermore, and above all, the action of an apostolic administration is not limited to its members.
    The Opus Dei, which is the personal prelacy that exists today, is not subject to the local bishop in all that concerns its
    members, but it could not consider any external action without the consent of the bishop. With the apostolic
    administration, we avoid this restriction.
    We would be able to take an autonomous apostolic action without
    having to ask authorisation from the diocesan bishop, since we would have a veritable diocese, whose
    distinctive characteristic is that it extends to the entire world.
    It is very important that such a proposition has
    been made, because after all, this juridical solution has never happened before, it is ‘sui generis’.
    Now that it has been established, it can represent for us, from a juridical point of view, a reference, a position of comparison.  
    Especially since it is to the Society of St. Pius X that this possibility has been proposed, which shows just how
    seriously Rome sees our resistance.
    It’s not by vainglory that I say that, believe me: symbolically (first of all, it's
    not a question of numbers) we represent something very important for Rome, and
    this also is new."


    When Bishop Fellay says "It's not by vainglory that I say that," what he means to
    say is that it is by vainglory that he's saying that.  For the "resistance" is not his
    anymore.  He has given up his resistance and has capitulated.  The resistance
    belongs to those who are now facing him up, which he hates.  But he is not averse
    to rob them not only of their real estate and patrimony but also of their virtue.  
    He does this by denying that it is by vainglory that he says that, which see.

    Then he promptly rubs salt into the wound by asking us to believe him!

    You have to understand his frame of mind:  to openly deny that which is in fact
    happening, for its reality itself is what prompts him to deny the reality, in an effort
    to remove it from the mind of the listener.  This is a Modernist tactic which +Fellay
    has learned from someone, but from whom is not precisely clear.  You might have
    to go checking to see whose writings he has been studying in his spare time, holed
    up in Menzingen, when he's not wasting is time having intercourse with Modernists
    in Rome, by email or text message or whatever.  Perhaps he learned it from
    Yves Congar, or Karl Rahner, Henri de Lubac, Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, Edward
    Schillebeeckx, Teihard de Chardin, or possibly erstwhile Joseph Cardinal
    Ratzinger, the pre-eminent Modernist of all time, the king of kings, so to
    speak.................

    Quote
    3) In an interview conducted by Brian Mershon of The Remnant and published on February 18, 2009, His Excellency
    Bishop Bernard Fellay was posed the following question (my emphasis in bold):

    “Do you foresee any oversight by territorial diocesan bishops once the Society is regularized?”

    His Excellency answered (this author’s emphasis in bold):


    February 2013                                                                                                                                                                                                                Page 2 of 7
    “That would be our death. The situation of the Church is such that once the doctrinal issues have been clarified, we
    will need our own autonomy in order to survive. This means that we will have to be directly under the authority
    of the Pope with an exemption. If we look at the history of the Church, we see that every time the Popes wanted to
    restore the Church, they leaned upon new strength like the Benedictine Cistercians whom the pope allowed to act as
    best as possible during the crisis, in a status of exemption, in order to overcome the crisis.”

    4) On June 1, 2012 an interview was conducted by Rivarol with His Excellency Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais.

    The question was asked by Rivarol:

    “Some believe that the statute of a personal prelature proposed to you will provide sufficient guarantee to you
    concerning all danger of abandoning the combat for the faith.”

    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais responded (this author’s emphasis in bold):

    “That is incorrect. According to the project of prelature, we would not be free to create new priories without the
    permission of the local bishops and, additionally, all our recent foundations would have to be confirmed by
    these same bishops. It would thus mean subjugating us quite unnecessarily to an overall Modernist
    episcopate.”

    5) On June 8, 2012, the official international news organ of the Society of St. Pius X published an interview with His
    Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay in which the following question was asked:

    “A personal prelature is the canonical structure that you mentioned in recent statements. Now, in the Code of Canon
    Law, canon 297 requires not only informing diocesan bishops but obtaining their permission in order to found a work
    on their territory. Although it is clear that any canonical recognition will preserve our apostolate in its present state,
    are you inclined to accept the eventuality that future works may be possible only with the permission of the bishop in
    dioceses where the Society of Saint Pius X is not present today?”

    His Excellency answered (this author’s emphasis in bold):

    “There is a lot of confusion about this question, and it is caused mainly by a misunderstanding of the nature of a
    personal prelature, as well as by a misreading of the normal relation between the local ordinary and the prelature.
    Add to that the fact that the only example available today of a personal prelature is Opus Dei. However, and let us
    say this clearly, if a personal prelature were granted to us, our situation would not be the same. In order to
    understand better what would happen, we must reflect that our status would be much more similar to that of a military
    ordinariate, because we would have ordinary jurisdiction over the faithful. Thus we would be like a sort of
    diocese, the jurisdiction of which extends to all its faithful regardless of their territorial situation.

    “All the chapels, churches, priories, schools, and works of the Society and of the affiliated religious Congregations
    would be recognized with a real autonomy for their ministry.

    “It is still true—since it is Church law—that in order to open a new chapel or to found a work, it would be
    necessary to have the permission of the local ordinary. We have quite obviously reported to Rome how
    difficult our present situation was in the dioceses, and Rome is still working on it. Here or there, this difficulty
    will be real, but since when is life without difficulties? Very probably we will also have the contrary problem, in other
    words, we will not be able to respond to the requests that will come from the bishops who are friendly to us. I am
    thinking of one bishop who could ask us to take charge of the formation of future priests in his diocese.

    “In no way would our relations be like those of a religious congregation with a bishop; rather they would be those of
    one bishop with another bishop, just like with the Ukrainians and the Armenians in the diaspora. And therefore if a
    difficulty is not resolved, it would go to Rome, and there would then be a Roman intervention to settle the problem.

    “Let it be said in passing that what was reported on the Internet concerning my remarks on this subject in Austria last
    month is entirely false.”

    6) In a statement dated July 14, 2012, the 2012 SSPX General Chapter declared,

    “We have determined and approved the necessary conditions for an eventual canonical normalization.”







    -Which Fr. Hewko describes, and rightly so, as "this deadly sentence."

    When does a woman commit the mortal sin of abortion:  when the operation is
    performed, or when she determines and approves to schedule the appointment
    to have the child-killing operation performed?  Just as the mortal sin of abortion
    is committed at the time when the woman gives her evil fiat by making the
    appointment, so too, the sin of making a 'deal' with these Modernists who hate
    God is committed when the conditions are determined and approved for making
    a canonical normalization.  






    ...and ends thusly:

    Quote from: EM

    Conclusion


    Many priests and faithful alike were upset to see the dramatic change in the
    Society of St. Pius X leadership’s position in regards to its relation with the
    Diocesan Bishops, as officially declared at the 2012 SSPX General Chapter. In
    order to alleviate their concerns, the Society leadership has been working
    hard over the last several months in trying to justify its newly found position.

    Unfortunately, many of the same priests and faithful have been lulled back to
    sleep by the comforting words offered by Bishop Fellay and other Society
    superiors appointed by his own hand. Regardless, it does not change the fact
    that at the time of this writing (first week of February 2013), there has been
    no retraction on the part of the Society’s leadership of a severe slackening on
    a principle that, if it was to be executed by means of a canonical
    regularization, would gravely endanger the Faith of hundreds of thousands of
    Catholics and prevent the same Faith from reaching millions more.

    It is the hope of this author that this paper has sufficiently demonstrated to
    the reader that there has indeed been a dramatic change in the wrong
    direction. Consequently, we cannot continue to blindly trust the current SSPX
    leadership to guide the large majority of Traditional Catholics into 2013 and
    beyond; rather, with charity and without judging the interior of those who have
    defended this perilous stance, it is time for more priests and faithful to help
    build up again the fortress of Catholic Tradition before the enemy takes up
    permanent residence.

    For the Reign of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts!










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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops
    « Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 10:14:17 AM »
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  • I had a bit of a problem downloading this Mediafire PDF, and thought that a
    number of other members might be unable to pull it off due to various factors
    including but not limited to system incompatibility, antiquated software and/or
    hardware, slow Internet connection, fear of viruses and/or worms and/or
    malware, etc. etc.

    Therefore, in case it is of any help for you here is a .pdf file you can download
    from CI without having to run the gauntlet of Medifire ads, offers, download
    managers, membership subscription, monthly checking account automated
    debits or overdraft fees from your bank at $35 a pop.....





    Just click on the "Attached file" link and it's yours, right away.  
    7 pages, with formatting.............
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops
    « Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 04:04:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    I had a bit of a problem downloading this Mediafire PDF, and thought that a
    number of other members might be unable to pull it off due to various factors
    including but not limited to system incompatibility, antiquated software and/or
    hardware, slow Internet connection, fear of viruses and/or worms and/or
    malware, etc. etc.

    Therefore, in case it is of any help for you here is a .pdf file you can download
    from CI without having to run the gauntlet of Medifire ads, offers, download
    managers, membership subscription, monthly checking account automated
    debits or overdraft fees from your bank at $35 a pop.....





    Just click on the "Attached file" link and it's yours, right away.  
    7 pages, with formatting.............


    Thanks for doing this.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops
    « Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 06:56:40 AM »
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  • I have also placed the paper on another link:

    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 04:09:05 PM »
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  • This paper is key in understanding the collapse of the SSPX leadership's position in regards to placing its work under the mercy of the Diocesan Bishops:

    http://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/the_society_of_st_pius_x_and_the_diocesan_bishops.pdf

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 07:23:49 PM »
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  • In the August 2001 issue of Communicantes (former Canadian SSPX Magazine), there was published an interview conducted by Fr. de Tanouarn with His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay in which His Excellency spoke of a canonical structure proposed by Rome:

    “You have no doubt heard talk of this idea of an apostolic administration. The Society of St. Pius X would have become incorporated into an apostolic administration. What does this signify? The apostolic administration ordinarily is a diocesan structure, or quasi diocesan, in a time of crisis, over a given territory. Well! For us this territory would be the entire world. In other words, they offered us a structure that covered the entire world, a kind of personal diocese…”

    Fr. de Tanouarn intervened:

    “Excuse me for interrupting, Your Excellency, you mean a personal prelacy…”

    Bishop Fellay responded:

    “Not at all. The apostolic administration is better than a personal prelacy. In the first place, a personal prelacy is not necessarily governed by a bishop. An apostolic administration, which is quasi diocesan, normally would be. Furthermore, and above all, the action of an apostolic administration is not limited to its members. The Opus Dei, which is the personal prelacy that exists today, is not subject to the local bishop in all that concerns its members, but it could not consider any external action without the consent of the bishop. With the apostolic administration, we avoid this restriction. We would be able to take an autonomous apostolic action without having to ask authorisation from the diocesan bishop, since we would have a veritable diocese, whose distinctive characteristic is that it extends to the entire world. It is very important that such a proposition has been made, because after all, this juridical solution has never happened before, it is ‘sui generis’. Now that it has been established, it can represent for us, from a juridical point of view, a reference, a position of comparison. Especially since it is to the Society of St. Pius X that this possibility has been proposed, which shows just how seriously Rome sees our resistance. It’s not by vainglory that I say that, believe me: symbolically (first of all, it’s not a question of numbers) we represent something very important for Rome, and this also is new.”

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency, how is that today the SSPX is pondering a personal prelature? What has changed in the situation of the Church for such confidence to allow the local Bishop to now have some control over where the SSPX houses and chapels are to exist?"

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 07:27:26 PM »
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  • In an interview conducted by Brian Mershon of The Remnant and published on February 18, 2009, His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay was posed the following question:

    “Do you foresee any oversight by territorial diocesan bishops once the Society is regularized?”

    His Excellency answered:

    “That would be our death. The situation of the Church is such that once the doctrinal issues have been clarified, we will need our own autonomy in order to survive. This means that we will have to be directly under the authority of the Pope with an exemption. If we look at the history of the Church, we see that every time the Popes wanted to restore the Church, they leaned upon new strength like the Benedictine Cistercians whom the pope allowed to act as best as possible during the crisis, in a status of exemption, in order to overcome the crisis.”

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency, how is that today the SSPX is pondering a personal prelature? What has changed in the situation of the Church in three short years for such confidence to allow the local Bishop to now have some control over where the SSPX houses and chapels are to exist? And this even when there is no doctrinal resolution!"


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 07:31:25 PM »
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  • Source for the above two posts.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 11:53:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    In an interview conducted by Brian Mershon of The Remnant and published on February 18, 2009, His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay was posed the following question:

    “Do you foresee any oversight by territorial diocesan bishops once the Society is regularized?”

    His Excellency answered:

    “That would be our death. The situation of the Church is such that once the doctrinal issues have been clarified, we will need our own autonomy in order to survive. This means that we will have to be directly under the authority of the Pope with an exemption. If we look at the history of the Church, we see that every time the Popes wanted to restore the Church, they leaned upon new strength like the Benedictine Cistercians whom the pope allowed to act as best as possible during the crisis, in a status of exemption, in order to overcome the crisis.”

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency, how is that today the SSPX is pondering a personal prelature? What has changed in the situation of the Church in three short years for such confidence to allow the local Bishop to now have some control over where the SSPX houses and chapels are to exist? And this even when there is no doctrinal resolution!"



    Your quote is from 2009.  +Fellay is evolving quickly in the past 3 years........


    Excerpt from the December 29th, 2012 Conference in KY with Frs. Hewko and
    Pfeiffer (Fr. Hewko speaking here):


    [Second Desirable Condition]:  

     2.  “The exemption of houses…” – it’s ‘desirable’ – what is desirable?  The
    exemption of the houses is desirable? –  “The [exemption of] houses of the
    Society of St. Pius X, in respect to diocesan bishops.”  What does that mean?  
    It’s… fancy terminology, but it’s basically saying – ‘if we come under the local
    bishops.’  Well, that’s the law of the Church – Big deal!  And Bishop Fellay,
    when he was asked this very question, in an interview, he said, “Yeah, I see
    difficulties..” he concluded, “..Well, since when is life without difficulties?!”  


    But it’s very serious, this Second [Desirable] Condition, because obviously it’s
    a law of the Church that you come under the diocesan bishop
    .  And if we come
    under the diocesan bishop, what’s going to happen to our catechism program,
    what’s going to happen to our opening new houses, what’s going to happen to
    that pressure?  

    And the pressure is already on the priests.  All the priests of the Society know
    now, you’d better not say anything against a false agreement with Rome.  I hear
    you’re going to be silenced, you’re gonna be transferred, you’re gonna be kicked
    out
    , you’re gonna be punished.  So…the lesson is learned.  So the pressure is
    already there, and we haven’t even MADE an ‘agreement’ yet, ‘practically’!  



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    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 07:03:44 AM »
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  • On June 1, 2012 an interview was conducted by Rivarol with His Excellency Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais. The question was asked by Rivarol:

    “Some believe that the statute of a personal prelature proposed to you will provide sufficient guarantee to you concerning all danger of abandoning the combat for the faith.”

    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais responded:

    That is incorrect. According to the project of prelature, we would not be free to create new priories without the permission of the local bishops and, additionally, all our recent foundations would have to be confirmed by these same bishops. It would thus mean subjugating us quite unnecessarily to an overall Modernist episcopate.”

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency, you knew this ahead of time; however, you still chose to sign the General Chapter Declaration and the Six Conditions. Did you not learn from Archbishop Lefebvre's mistake in signing the 1988 Protocol? And now you remain silent on such a critical issue. To paraphase Bishop Williamson, you seem to be like a car with a powerful engine, but no transmission."


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 08:24:39 PM »
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  • I must agree with you, Ecclesia Militans.

    I have great respect for Bishop Tissier, and I can perhaps understand why he believes that more good can be done remaining in the SSPX. However, in times such as these, we cannot remain silent. This is a point that Fr. Cardozo rightly made in his letter to silent SSPX priests in December.

    If I were in Bishop Tissier's position, I think I would contine to speak out against what Bishop Fellay is doing, and if I were expelled for it, so be it.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    « Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 06:53:11 AM »
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  • In a statement dated July 14, 2012, the 2012 SSPX General Chapter declared, “We have determined and approved the necessary conditions for an eventual canonical normalization.”

    In a letter dated July 18, 2012 and addressed to the superiors and priests of the SSPX, Fr. Christian Thouvenot, Secretary-General of the SSPX, outlined the conditions for a canonical normalization. Desirable condition #2, which is related to the subject of this paper, is stated as follows:

    “Exemption of houses of The Society of St Pius X in respect of diocesan bishops.”

    In a letter leaked out to the public shortly after the General Chapter Statement, the SSPX faithful learn that the exemption of the houses of the Society of St. Pius X from the control of the Diocesan Bishops is listed only as a “desirable” condition! What a shock! The SSPX leadership went from demanding complete freedom from the Diocesan Bishops (and even this being only possible after the resolution of the doctrinal differences) to simply desiring to be free from the Diocesan Bishops (and this even though the doctrinal differences were said to be insurmountable after almost two years of discussions after which each side admitted were a failure in their attempts to convince the other side)! Talk about a formidable collapse in as little as three years!

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency Bishop Fellay, how could your position slide so dramatically? How could you justify it in the aftermath of Assisi III? For anybody with eyes to see, the six conditions outlined in the General Chapter were tailored to make the granting of canonical regularization more palatable for Rome. Your Excellency, you have shown yourself to be not of the same line of thought as Archbishop Lefebvre after the 1988 Consecrations. You did not learn from your founder's mistakes. If you are so adamant about your current position, please leave the Society of St. Pius X and join Rome independently along with the group of priests who have blindly followed you thus far."

    Offline Machabees

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    « Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 02:20:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    In a statement dated July 14, 2012, the 2012 SSPX General Chapter declared, “We have determined and approved the necessary conditions for an eventual canonical normalization.”

    In a letter dated July 18, 2012 and addressed to the superiors and priests of the SSPX, Fr. Christian Thouvenot, Secretary-General of the SSPX, outlined the conditions for a canonical normalization. Desirable condition #2, which is related to the subject of this paper, is stated as follows:

    “Exemption of houses of The Society of St Pius X in respect of diocesan bishops.”

    In a letter leaked out to the public shortly after the General Chapter Statement, the SSPX faithful learn that the exemption of the houses of the Society of St. Pius X from the control of the Diocesan Bishops is listed only as a “desirable” condition! What a shock! The SSPX leadership went from demanding complete freedom from the Diocesan Bishops (and even this being only possible after the resolution of the doctrinal differences) to simply desiring to be free from the Diocesan Bishops (and this even though the doctrinal differences were said to be insurmountable after almost two years of discussions after which each side admitted were a failure in their attempts to convince the other side)! Talk about a formidable collapse in as little as three years!

    Ecclesia Militans asks, "Your Excellency Bishop Fellay, how could your position slide so dramatically? How could you justify it in the aftermath of Assisi III? For anybody with eyes to see, the six conditions outlined in the General Chapter were tailored to make the granting of canonical regularization more palatable for Rome. Your Excellency, you have shown yourself to be not of the same line of thought as Archbishop Lefebvre after the 1988 Consecrations. You did not learn from your founder's mistakes. If you are so adamant about your current position, please leave the Society of St. Pius X and join Rome independently along with the group of priests who have blindly followed you thus far."


    Well said Ecclesia Militans.

    Offline Wessex

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    The Society of St. Pius X and the Diocesan Bishops
    « Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 03:47:11 PM »
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  • Bp. Fellay will be nothing without the Society; he acts as though he is the Society and will do for some considerable time. And the fact that he achieved the appearance of unity after failing last year to realise his ambition with Rome shows how hard it is to dislodge him. He has got more time in which to pursue this ambition of leading a compliant body of priests down the Roman road, followed by the laity of course.