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Author Topic: The secret consecration of Bishops  (Read 6548 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2024, 10:07:46 PM »
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  • This point has been made many times to Bp. Williamson, pleading for him to ordain and put more priest into the field. 

    But the answer is always the same, that such things cannot be expedited.  But when it comes to giving Vigano his trad certification… it’s “no problemo.”

    It's because these things CAN'T be expedited. Are you insane? What trained, formed, qualified candidates exactly is +W turning away?

    You just have to have patience -- and trust in God. When you take matters in your own hands, FAILING to trust in God, is precisely what causes things like Fr. Joseph "Santeria warlock for a right hand man" Pfeiffer.

    Taking away the doubtful validity of Orders for an existing priest or bishop is a COMPLETELY different matter. That is all upside, no downside. He's already practicing as a priest/bishop -- it's best to rectify his Orders so there is no longer a doubt. But you're not MAKING a priest or bishop where there wasn't one. It's not like +Vigano was going to sell cars if +W refused to conditionally consecrate him.

    Nor can a doubtfully ordained/consecrated priest or bishop just stop practicing as a priest for a while. He can't just exist in limbo, or the equivalent of "live as brother and sister until the marriage is rectified". How exactly is a cleric supposed to support himself, while his priestly ministry is "on hold", hmmm?  Is he supposed to get a job at Starbucks? He HAS given his whole life for the Church thus far; he has no other marketable skills. And even if he was a software developer (or something) before he joined the Seminary, CANON LAW prohibits a Cleric from working jobs for money.

    This is a major issue, since you seem to think he has to be tried in the court of Public Opinion and win people over en masse before he can "have his marriage rectified and live happily ever after" (to use a marriage analogy again). What is required by each person for "forgiveness" will vary widely -- for some, it will require his death (i.e., no forgiveness). Others have already forgiven/accepted him.

    But you see, all the priest HAS to do is get conditionally ordained (or consecrated, for a bishop) and he's good to go. He doesn't have to convince YOU first -- or anyone else -- that he's truly converted, or is a good guy now. That's not how it works.

    And we are required by Charity to assume the best about human beings. You're not allowed to presume the worst about a person by default, when there is no evidence one way or the other. That's something you should be confessing in the confessional. When someone converts, you must PRESUME it's genuine unless forced to conclude otherwise. I'm talking forced by EVIDENCE here, not just gut feelings or emotional baggage you're carrying from past scars.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #31 on: January 17, 2024, 08:12:09 AM »
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  • Fair enough.  Would you receive sacraments from him?

    Not until he renounced Opus Dei.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Herr Eisenberg derDeutsch

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #32 on: January 17, 2024, 09:19:08 AM »
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  • If you don't mind me asking how is it that a laymen was given the authority to demanded anything form the clergy at all especially if it doesn't involve you in any capacity.   
    Ich Verachte Heuchler

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #33 on: January 17, 2024, 09:56:18 AM »
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  • No.  I'm not saying I think you're lying.  I'm saying this post is the first time I've read that anyone has directly said that Bishop Williamson actually told them that he conditionally consecrated Vigano.

    I posted that a very long time ago, even if you hadn't seen it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #34 on: January 17, 2024, 09:57:44 AM »
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  • RM, 

    In a nutshell, Vigano is a highly politicized prelate, the 8th highest ranked newChurch cleric under the Bergolio papacy.

    We were told…  that he had a conversion to the true Catholic Faith and went underground, with the help of a couple Opus Dei Luminaries, who published his dramatic story. 

    First Concern: In recent years, such international cover stories have been proven to be media deceptions.

    Secondly, Vigano has had ties and knowledge of the clandestine Opus Dei who controls over 60 media outlets worldwide.

    The disgraced Michael Voris ran one such operation known as “Church Miltant”.

    Thirdly, in the past three years, Vigano has published hundreds of expose’s and opinions on Church scandals and many tangential political issues.

    Several of his political opinions are questionable (i.e., Trump, Putin, Dugin) as are his repeated omissions of conspicuous, major factions, such as Zionism and Opus Dei.

    But with his media leverage, his voice has become the equivalent of “Q-Anon” messaging the confused, conservative Catholic world.

    The fourth point:
    Last summer, Bp. Williamson, leader of the decentralized and stagnant SSPX Resistance, announced that Archbishop Vigano was, “The heir to the light of the truth”, meaning +ABL. 

    What does this imply… that he is taking over the traditional Catholic movement?

    Then, during this past Advent we are told by Fr. Chazal of the Phillipines that +W and Bp. Faure secretly gave Vigano a conditional Apostolic consecration.

    There was no announcement,  photos or video nor has Archbishop Vigano acknowledged he now has pre-Vatican II Orders, which would indicate his commitment to tradition.

    Now, we’re not talking about a simple Novus ordo Diocese priest becoming a trad.

    We’re talking about a highly ranked Bishop, from the modernist camp, being put into a international leadership position of the entire Catholic remnant.

    The essence of this topic debate is:

    Instead of blindly following personality cults, we as Catholics have a duty to ask questions and to discern the background and agenda of this prelate.

    100% nonsense.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #35 on: January 17, 2024, 09:58:21 AM »
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  • If you don't mind me asking how is it that a laymen was given the authority to demanded anything form the clergy at all especially if it doesn't involve you in any capacity. 

    Because he's just a jackass who has an ax to grind against +Vigano.

    Offline Herr Eisenberg derDeutsch

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #36 on: January 17, 2024, 10:33:52 AM »
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  • Ok thanks I just was confused on where the authority came from that clears it all up for me once again thankyou.    
    Ich Verachte Heuchler

    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #37 on: January 17, 2024, 12:59:16 PM »
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  • Nor can a doubtfully ordained/consecrated priest or bishop just stop practicing as a priest for a while. He can't just exist in limbo, or the equivalent of "live as brother and sister until the marriage is rectified". How exactly is a cleric supposed to support himself, while his priestly ministry is "on hold", hmmm?  Is he supposed to get a job at Starbucks? He HAS given his whole life for the Church thus far; he has no other marketable skills. And even if he was a software developer (or something) before he joined the Seminary, CANON LAW prohibits a Cleric from working jobs for money.

    This is not the case.  Nowhere does Canon Law prohibit a cleric for working a job for money.  In fact, Canon 139 (1917 Code) lays out certain professions that clerics either cannot engage in at all (secular notaries, being one) or they need an indult for (surgery and medicine).  Simply because the SSPX requires some oath against this before tonsure does not make it "canon law".  That is just something the SSPX does.

    There was also the worker priest movement in France in the 1950s, that had some problems, yes, but was eventually allowed to continue in a certain form.  There are still Novus Ordo priests in France that belong to this original movement.  Not to mention, a large amount of Eastern Catholic priests also work secular jobs.  

    There are priests that are also taxi drivers, bus drivers for disabled children, network engineers, high school teachers, antique dealers, college professors, etc.  Some chapels are in between being too small to support a priest full time but at the same time have a large enough group of faithful to need a priest close by and have Mass regularly.  Some of these "worker priests" are able to fulfill this role, and these priests take no money for their priestly ministry.  In fact, many of them put quite a bit of their own money into these chapels.  


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #38 on: January 17, 2024, 04:42:29 PM »
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  • If you don't mind me asking how is it that a laymen was given the authority to demanded anything form the clergy at all especially if it doesn't involve you in any capacity. 
    Just joined last night, eh? 🤔

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #39 on: January 17, 2024, 04:51:03 PM »
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  • This is not the case.  Nowhere does Canon Law prohibit a cleric for working a job for money.  In fact, Canon 139 (1917 Code) lays out certain professions that clerics either cannot engage in at all (secular notaries, being one) or they need an indult for (surgery and medicine).  Simply because the SSPX requires some oath against this before tonsure does not make it "canon law".  That is just something the SSPX does.

    There was also the worker priest movement in France in the 1950s, that had some problems, yes, but was eventually allowed to continue in a certain form.  There are still Novus Ordo priests in France that belong to this original movement.  Not to mention, a large amount of Eastern Catholic priests also work secular jobs. 

    There are priests that are also taxi drivers, bus drivers for disabled children, network engineers, high school teachers, antique dealers, college professors, etc.  Some chapels are in between being too small to support a priest full time but at the same time have a large enough group of faithful to need a priest close by and have Mass regularly.  Some of these "worker priests" are able to fulfill this role, and these priests take no money for their priestly ministry.  In fact, many of them put quite a bit of their own money into these chapels. 
    You're a priest, correct?

    Offline Herr Eisenberg derDeutsch

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #40 on: January 17, 2024, 04:53:16 PM »
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  • Just joined last night, eh? 🤔
    Is there anything wrong with disagreeing with someones point of view when it sounds like a personal problem.
    Ich Verachte Heuchler


    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #41 on: January 18, 2024, 08:08:26 AM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #42 on: January 18, 2024, 09:50:30 AM »
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  • This is not the case.  Nowhere does Canon Law prohibit a cleric for working a job for money.  In fact, Canon 139 (1917 Code) lays out certain professions that clerics either cannot engage in at all (secular notaries, being one) or they need an indult for (surgery and medicine).  Simply because the SSPX requires some oath against this before tonsure does not make it "canon law".  That is just something the SSPX does.

    There was also the worker priest movement in France in the 1950s, that had some problems, yes, but was eventually allowed to continue in a certain form.  There are still Novus Ordo priests in France that belong to this original movement.  Not to mention, a large amount of Eastern Catholic priests also work secular jobs. 

    There are priests that are also taxi drivers, bus drivers for disabled children, network engineers, high school teachers, antique dealers, college professors, etc.  Some chapels are in between being too small to support a priest full time but at the same time have a large enough group of faithful to need a priest close by and have Mass regularly.  Some of these "worker priests" are able to fulfill this role, and these priests take no money for their priestly ministry.  In fact, many of them put quite a bit of their own money into these chapels. 

    I questioned this also in my mind when it was posted.  I can especially see with Traditional priests that they may work at a chapel that's too small to support them and where they might have to take on some work to pay the bills, get health insurance, etc.

    Offline trento

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #43 on: January 19, 2024, 04:20:49 AM »
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  • It's because these things CAN'T be expedited. Are you insane? What trained, formed, qualified candidates exactly is +W turning away?

    You just have to have patience -- and trust in God. When you take matters in your own hands, FAILING to trust in God, is precisely what causes things like Fr. Joseph "Santeria warlock for a right hand man" Pfeiffer.

    Taking away the doubtful validity of Orders for an existing priest or bishop is a COMPLETELY different matter. That is all upside, no downside. He's already practicing as a priest/bishop -- it's best to rectify his Orders so there is no longer a doubt. But you're not MAKING a priest or bishop where there wasn't one. It's not like +Vigano was going to sell cars if +W refused to conditionally consecrate him.

    Nor can a doubtfully ordained/consecrated priest or bishop just stop practicing as a priest for a while. He can't just exist in limbo, or the equivalent of "live as brother and sister until the marriage is rectified". How exactly is a cleric supposed to support himself, while his priestly ministry is "on hold", hmmm?  Is he supposed to get a job at Starbucks? He HAS given his whole life for the Church thus far; he has no other marketable skills. And even if he was a software developer (or something) before he joined the Seminary, CANON LAW prohibits a Cleric from working jobs for money.

    This is a major issue, since you seem to think he has to be tried in the court of Public Opinion and win people over en masse before he can "have his marriage rectified and live happily ever after" (to use a marriage analogy again). What is required by each person for "forgiveness" will vary widely -- for some, it will require his death (i.e., no forgiveness). Others have already forgiven/accepted him.

    But you see, all the priest HAS to do is get conditionally ordained (or consecrated, for a bishop) and he's good to go. He doesn't have to convince YOU first -- or anyone else -- that he's truly converted, or is a good guy now. That's not how it works.

    And we are required by Charity to assume the best about human beings. You're not allowed to presume the worst about a person by default, when there is no evidence one way or the other. That's something you should be confessing in the confessional. When someone converts, you must PRESUME it's genuine unless forced to conclude otherwise. I'm talking forced by EVIDENCE here, not just gut feelings or emotional baggage you're carrying from past scars.

    Well, there are problematic characters that +W refused to ordain but somehow got ordained by bishops consecrated by +W. How's that for pushing the responsibility to others? :popcorn:

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #44 on: January 19, 2024, 10:50:02 AM »
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  • Because he's just a jackass who has an ax to grind against +Vigano.

    Lads wants to believe in Vigano because like the sheep who followed Q-Anon, he’s a clerical “Hope porno” addict.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi