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Author Topic: The secret consecration of Bishops  (Read 6624 times)

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Offline TKGS

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Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2024, 04:46:10 PM »
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  • I think there is a significant difference between consecrations made in secret and kept secret after the consecration and consecrations made without public fanfare (i.e., very few witnesses) but not kept secret after the fact.  The former is the case with Vigano and was the case with Kelly (kept secret until the consecrating bishop died) but was not the case with any of the bishop consecrated by Archbishop Thuc.

    The difference isn't validity...the difference is whether the faithful have any reason to believe that a consecration ever took place so, should the new bishop take actions that only a bishop can take, why should the faithful accept those acts...especially if the purported bishop will not tell anyone who made him a bishop?

    It's like accepting an independent priest who just shows up and says he's a priest but refuses to disclose anything about his past.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #16 on: January 14, 2024, 05:29:56 PM »
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  • Quote
    I think there is a significant difference between consecrations made in secret and kept secret after the consecration and consecrations made without public fanfare (i.e., very few witnesses) but not kept secret after the fact. 
    Exactly.  Besides +Vigano, the 2 Bishops consecrated "secretly" were in Europe, during the Covid lockdowns.  They were announced once the covid-scam was ending.  The reasons for secrecy were obvious, wise and necessary.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #17 on: January 14, 2024, 05:52:09 PM »
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  • And conditionals are also in a separate category, not typically announced with a great deal of fanfare ... if at all.

    I don't even think it was all THAT secret, since Bishop Williamson has told those who asked him directly.  Given who Bishop Williamson and +Vigano are, I don't think we have any reason to believe it did not take place.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #18 on: January 14, 2024, 06:22:53 PM »
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  • I think there is a significant difference between consecrations made in secret and kept secret after the consecration and consecrations made without public fanfare (i.e., very few witnesses) but not kept secret after the fact.  The former is the case with Vigano and was the case with Kelly (kept secret until the consecrating bishop died) but was not the case with any of the bishop consecrated by Archbishop Thuc.

    The difference isn't validity...the difference is whether the faithful have any reason to believe that a consecration ever took place so, should the new bishop take actions that only a bishop can take, why should the faithful accept those acts...especially if the purported bishop will not tell anyone who made him a bishop?

    It's like accepting an independent priest who just shows up and says he's a priest but refuses to disclose anything about his past.
    Well said.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #19 on: January 14, 2024, 07:07:28 PM »
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  • Interestingly, Bishop Sanborn did not cast any aspersions on Bishop Williamson or Vigano when he responded to the email question (unless I missed it).

    Good observation.  We’re not focusing on the politics of the competing trad orders, just trying to put their actions into the context of Catholic tradition.

    If any Bishop can proceed, creatively on his own, like Bp. Joe “Santeria” Pfeiffer, then there are problems.

    Of course, we all understand this is a Church crisis and we require emergency tactics to survive.  

    This point has been made many times to Bp. Williamson, pleading for him to ordain and put more priest into the field.  

    But the answer is always the same, that such things cannot be expedited.  But when it comes to giving Vigano his trad certification… it’s “no problemo.”

    With such secret priorities, one would not be surprised to find Opus Dei, crypto-trad Bishops running trad news media outlets. 
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #20 on: January 15, 2024, 05:04:54 AM »
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  • I guess that each of us Trads has to "choose" which bishop we think will better lead us during this Crisis, which bishop's ministrations will more likely lead us to heaven.

    I choose Bp. Williamson. You can choose whoever you wish. 
    Can you substantiate this in any way? Choosing a bishop to follow?

    I can only find evidence against putting your trust in man. You can only follow the Vicar of Christ in matters of faith.

    Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man (Jeremiah 17:5)

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #21 on: January 15, 2024, 07:30:28 AM »
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  • And conditionals are also in a separate category, not typically announced with a great deal of fanfare ... if at all.

    I don't even think it was all THAT secret, since Bishop Williamson has told those who asked him directly.  Given who Bishop Williamson and +Vigano are, I don't think we have any reason to believe it did not take place.

    Has he?  Who has he told and who has reported that he has told them directly?  So far, all I've read is that Bishop Williamson has said that Vigano has done what must be done.  You said that yourself in on topic and then you interpreted that to mean that he's been conditionally consecrated.  That is hardly a direct statement.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #22 on: January 15, 2024, 07:46:58 AM »
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  • Has he?  Who has he told and who has reported that he has told them directly?  So far, all I've read is that Bishop Williamson has said that Vigano has done what must be done.  You said that yourself in on topic and then you interpreted that to mean that he's been conditionally consecrated.  That is hardly a direct statement.
    Even if he did tell people directly, the consecration is still secret to those who don't have direct access to those in the know. Not to mention Vigano hasn't made it public either.  A perfect place for BW to make it public would have been his last Eleison Comment, no? These aren't normal times, so making conditional consecrations public would be necessary.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #23 on: January 15, 2024, 07:49:29 AM »
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  • Has he?  Who has he told and who has reported that he has told them directly?

    Yes.  So, do you think I'm lying?  I know two people who are in direct contact with Bishop Williamson who asked him, and he told them.  I won't reveal names, since they asked me to keep their identities under wraps.  If I had Bishop Williamson's contact information, I wouldn't waste his time by asking him again, because these sources are credible enough for me.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #24 on: January 15, 2024, 07:50:56 AM »
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  • Good observation.  We’re not focusing on the politics of the competing trad orders, just trying to put their actions into the context of Catholic tradition.

    If any Bishop can proceed, creatively on his own, like Bp. Joe “Santeria” Pfeiffer, then there are problems.

    Of course, we all understand this is a Church crisis and we require emergency tactics to survive. 

    This point has been made many times to Bp. Williamson, pleading for him to ordain and put more priest into the field. 

    But the answer is always the same, that such things cannot be expedited.  But when it comes to giving Vigano his trad certification… it’s “no problemo.”

    With such secret priorities, one would not be surprised to find Opus Dei, crypto-trad Bishops running trad news media outlets.
    Thanks, Incred.  I think the idea is that the future priests are coming out of Vigano's new seminary.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #25 on: January 15, 2024, 05:45:10 PM »
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  • Yes.  So, do you think I'm lying?  I know two people who are in direct contact with Bishop Williamson who asked him, and he told them.  I won't reveal names, since they asked me to keep their identities under wraps.  If I had Bishop Williamson's contact information, I wouldn't waste his time by asking him again, because these sources are credible enough for me.

    No.  I'm not saying I think you're lying.  I'm saying this post is the first time I've read that anyone has directly said that Bishop Williamson actually told them that he conditionally consecrated Vigano.  So now we have it third hand.  I don't know these two individuals and, frankly, I still doubt that there has been a consecration.  It's still a secret and no one really has a good reason to trust that Vigano is a valid bishop.  Your two confidants may have also simply interpreted Bishop Williamson's declaration to mean something that it didn't really mean.


    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #26 on: January 15, 2024, 06:16:43 PM »
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  • What does anyone have to gain by doubting that +Williamson consecrated +Vigano?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #27 on: January 15, 2024, 06:40:35 PM »
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  • Interesting.  Who was this Independent priest who was OK with either STAS or Bishop Sanborn's seminary?

    I'm guessing you're talking about Abbot Leonard (Giardina) in Alabama.  I spent a few days there myself, but just got a strange "off" vibe about it, where I didn't feel as though I would fit in there.  I couldn't put a finger on it, but my "spidey senses" suggested that something was not right there.  They eventually went Novus Ordo after Abbot Leonard died.
    I visited Christ the King Abbey in Cullman twice in the early 2000s, for a few days each time, but due to health problems I had at the time, I couldn't have asked to stay at the monastery, so I got a simple room at a motor hotel in Cullman (Super 8 one time, and possibly both times, I honestly don't remember) and "commuted" out to the abbey during the day.   I visited briefly with Abbot Leonard and he was very kind to me, made me feel totally welcome.  I don't know if the abbey was sedevacantist or not, but Abbot Leonard, in our conversation, referred to JPII as "the Pope".  Make of that what you will.

    I didn't get any particular "vibe", but there was one thing, when I made my confession, the priest absolved me in English, using the traditional rite of absolution.  I thought that was kind of strange, but I figured Abbot Leonard, for whatever reason, had given his priests permission to do so.  So far as I am aware, his priests were ordained by Bishop McKenna.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #28 on: January 16, 2024, 08:17:09 PM »
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  • What does anyone have to gain by doubting that +Williamson consecrated +Vigano?

    RM, 

    In a nutshell, Vigano is a highly politicized prelate, the 8th highest ranked newChurch cleric under the Bergolio papacy.

    We were told…  that he had a conversion to the true Catholic Faith and went underground, with the help of a couple Opus Dei Luminaries, who published his dramatic story. 

    First Concern: In recent years, such international cover stories have been proven to be media deceptions.

    Secondly, Vigano has had ties and knowledge of the clandestine Opus Dei who controls over 60 media outlets worldwide.

    The disgraced Michael Voris ran one such operation known as “Church Miltant”.

    Thirdly, in the past three years, Vigano has published hundreds of expose’s and opinions on Church scandals and many tangential political issues.

    Several of his political opinions are questionable (i.e., Trump, Putin, Dugin) as are his repeated omissions of conspicuous, major factions, such as Zionism and Opus Dei.

    But with his media leverage, his voice has become the equivalent of “Q-Anon” messaging the confused, conservative Catholic world.

    The fourth point:
    Last summer, Bp. Williamson, leader of the decentralized and stagnant SSPX Resistance, announced that Archbishop Vigano was, “The heir to the light of the truth”, meaning +ABL. 

    What does this imply… that he is taking over the traditional Catholic movement?

    Then, during this past Advent we are told by Fr. Chazal of the Phillipines that +W and Bp. Faure secretly gave Vigano a conditional Apostolic consecration.

    There was no announcement,  photos or video nor has Archbishop Vigano acknowledged he now has pre-Vatican II Orders, which would indicate his commitment to tradition.

    Now, we’re not talking about a simple Novus ordo Diocese priest becoming a trad.

    We’re talking about a highly ranked Bishop, from the modernist camp, being put into a international leadership position of the entire Catholic remnant.

    The essence of this topic debate is:

    Instead of blindly following personality cults, we as Catholics have a duty to ask questions and to discern the background and agenda of this prelate.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The secret consecration of Bishops
    « Reply #29 on: January 16, 2024, 08:34:17 PM »
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  • RM, 

    In a nutshell, Vigano is a highly politicized prelate, the 8th highest ranked newChurch cleric under the Bergolio papacy.

    We were told…  that he had a conversion to the true Catholic Faith and went underground, with the help of a couple Opus Dei Luminaries, who published his dramatic story. 

    First Concern: In recent years, such international cover stories have been proven to be media deceptions.

    Secondly, Vigano has had ties and knowledge of the clandestine Opus Dei who controls over 60 media outlets worldwide.

    The disgraced Michael Voris ran one such operation known as “Church Miltant”.

    Thirdly, in the past three years, Vigano has published hundreds of expose’s and opinions on Church scandals and many tangential political issues.

    Several of his political opinions are questionable (i.e., Trump, Putin, Dugin) as are his repeated omissions of conspicuous, major factions, such as Zionism and Opus Dei.

    But with his media leverage, his voice has become the equivalent of “Q-Anon” messaging the confused, conservative Catholic world.

    The fourth point:
    Last summer, Bp. Williamson, leader of the decentralized and stagnant SSPX Resistance, announced that Archbishop Vigano was, “The heir to the light of the truth”, meaning +ABL. 

    What does this imply… that he is taking over the traditional Catholic movement?

    Then, during this past Advent we are told by Fr. Chazal of the Phillipines that +W and Bp. Faure secretly gave Vigano a conditional Apostolic consecration.

    There was no announcement,  photos or video nor has Archbishop Vigano acknowledged he now has pre-Vatican II Orders, which would indicate his commitment to tradition.

    Now, we’re not talking about a simple Novus ordo Diocese priest becoming a trad.

    We’re talking about a highly ranked Bishop, from the modernist camp, being put into a international leadership position of the entire Catholic remnant.

    The essence of this topic debate is:

    Instead of blindly following personality cults, we as Catholics have a duty to ask questions and to discern the background and agenda of this prelate.
    Fair enough.  Would you receive sacraments from him?