Author Topic: THE ROME-FSSPX NEGOTIATIONS CAUSE A CRISIS IN SAN NICOLÁS DE CHARDONNET  (Read 1961 times)

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Offline Mr G

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THE ROME-FSSPX NEGOTIATIONS CAUSE A CRISIS IN SAN NICOLÁS DE CHARDONNET

  This Sunday May 14, the atrium of the church St. Nicholas of Chardonnet is boiling.  A few hours earlier, the priest of the emblematic Parisian parish church occupied by the traditionalists since 1977, Fr. de la Rocque, was relieved of his duties with other deans of the Priestly Fraternity Saint Pius X (FSSPX).  Reason for the misfortune?  To have disseminated, without submitting the text to his superiors, a declaration signed by seven deans and superiors of congregations of the SSPX.  This declaration criticizes the recognition by Rome of the marriages celebrated between the faithful of the Fraternity on condition that the exchange of consents is received by a priest in communion with Rome or a priest of the Fraternity with authorization of the bishop.  But at bottom, what is played goes beyond this matter of marriage and touches the process of rapprochement with Rome, while the eventuality of the creation of a personal prelature, under the model of Opus Dei, was raised last year By the secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.  This commission manages in the Vatican the discussions with the traditionalists.  In the ranks of the SSPX, some have the opinion that their doctrinal convictions are sacrificed on the altar of the policy of rapprochement.

 The blame of the P. de la Rocque

 "We are completely outraged," says a young woman.  Our parish priest, Fr. de la Rocque, defended the doctrine.  And suddenly they put it aside because he told the truth.  I am against the prelature and against all agreement, because what we want is to preserve the Catholic faith, which Monsignor Lefebvre transmitted to us.  Why want an agreement, why a prelature?  To have the power, to be prelate?  We do not want power.  What we want is to safeguard the true sacraments. "  Another believer defends the contrary opinion: "No, it was necessary to separate the Fr. de La Rocque, because what he did is serious, it is insubordination."  In the atrium, a man comments on the situation: " Actually, in all these negotiations, what bothers people is that they do not deal with the background of the disagreements between the traditionalists and the conciliar church, but only about a canonical regularization.  Pope Francisco, with a certain diplomatic skill, takes small steps and grants small concessions, advances with the agreement of Bishop Fellay. "

 The phrase "small steps" touches a fundamental point.  On the return flight from Fatima on May 13, the pope explained that the document of agreement between Rome and the Fraternity has not yet been achieved, that all triumphalism must be avoided and that we must continue to walk: With Bishop Fellay I have a good relationship, Said Francisco .  We have spoken several times.  I do not like to push things.  Walk, walk, walk, then you will see.  For me it is not a problem of winners or losers, but a problem of brothers and sisters who must walk together, seeking the formula to take steps forward. " Thus, where Benedict XVI tried to heal the fracture by theological and doctrinal negotiation, The method of Pope Francis is to act step by step.

 The examples are not lacking.  In September of 2015, during the jubilee of the Mercy, Francis returned " acquittal and valid" the acquittal granted by the priests of the Fraternity for the confessions, before to perennizar the measure in April of this year and to add the question of the marriages .  Now, in the FSSPX, this new way of doing disorientates a certain number of faithful, more accustomed to the doctrinal argument than to this proactive approach that gives them the feeling of being faced with the fait accompli.  A strategy paradoxically quite effective, revealing internal fractures.
 The reactions of the base

 The tensions in the parishes involved, among which is St. Nicholas of Chardonnet, are the image of those that cross the Fraternity as a whole.  Faced with the approach perspective, the reactions of the base disagree.  There are those who have lived so many ads of this type that they prefer to wait.  There are those who fear losing their liberty and their soul and believe that the Fraternity is not the one who should give the saint and sign, but Rome: "What do they reproach us?  If Rome decides to take a step towards the Tradition saying that they renounce to take into account the council, the agreement is possible, otherwise it is not worth it.  If we have a prelature, we would have to ask for authorizations for the purchase of new houses, everything will depend on the bishop for marriages, " says a young woman.

 "Once we say yes to Rome , we can not say," But we do not agree with you. "  We can not make concessions.  Or it is yes and we agree, or it is not.  We do not want to say: yes but ... " adds another.  A young man agrees: "We do not know anything about the ongoing negotiations, because the General House keeps everything for herself and this is what we reproach her: they do not listen to the theologians of the SSPX, the priests, Écône ... To present the text, the seven deans have acted for the defense of the faith, they wanted to put an end to this, to be able to say things, that theologians can freely express themselves. "

 Little by little, some evoke their distrust of the superior general of the SSPX and evoke what is most unbearable in the "conciliar" Church: the relationship with other religions.  "The last letter to Monsieur Fellay's friends and benefactors speaks of Protestantism and firmly condemns what Luther did, says a young man.  It is a very doctrinal letter, but does not give practical conclusions: it did not mention, for example, the arrival of the statue of Luther to the Vatican.  This is a real scandal. "

 The show of divisions

 A faithful in his fifties says more: "People are becoming more distrustful of the general direction, one wonders what they have in mind.  In 2018 there are general elections, and everything suggests that Bishop Fellay will not be re-elected: against the 7 deans over 10, all the superiors of the congregations, wants to retain power by force before the election ... " A lady interrupts him : "Can you take God as a witness to what you are saying?
 
 "Yes, I do," the man says.

 "No accusations should be made without foundation.  You lie ... how can you say it's a coup d'état?

 "Of course it's a coup d'etat!"  Look at the division of the faithful!

 "There is no such division.  It is you who create it when telling stories.  It's a sedevacantist, it's not from the parish!  He thinks he knows the lady.
 - I have been here for 40 years, I have made the guard (the parish was occupied by the traditionalists in 1977, ndlr) ... Soon we will not have guard, everyone will be reintegrated "

 And the tensions continued during the mass.  Fr. Bouchacourt, the district superior of France, explaining why he took the "difficult" decision to relieve the priest of St. Nicholas of Chardonnet, speaks only five minutes in the church crammed, when a third of the attendants rose and were Towards the exit.  "You may want to punish me," Father Bouchacourt said, " or punish your parish!  Around the entrance door, the group that was formed, composed essentially of young people, sang songs to the Virgin, while the faithful looked at each other in bewilderment, trying to understand the situation.  In the midst of those who remained seated, a young woman wept in the spectacle of divisions.  "Our Fraternity, founded by Monsignor Lefebvre for the sanctification of the priests is attacked, continued Fr. Bouchacourt.  They want to stir the division into it.  Satan is attacking her.  The FSSPX does not intend, by any means of the world, to abandon the fight of the faith.  My brothers, be persuaded.  We want to defend the faith of always, the mass of always, the sacraments of always and to reject the council that has poisoned and that poisons the Church from the interior and it autodestruye ".

 In the end, the discussions continued in the atrium.  "They are just some agitators who want to sow confusion , want to believe a faithful.  The majority of the parish is united and understands the decision of Fr. Bouchacourt. "  What if the agreement is concluded?  The answer was quick: "Has the prelature already been created?  No. We'll decide when it happens.  Meanwhile, it's a lot of noise for nothing. "  One thing is certain: if the possibility of a rapprochement with the lefebvristas makes teeth grind in the heart of the Catholic Church, it also provokes turbulence in the SSPX.  

Offline Incredulous

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         "Les divisions !?!"
"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


Offline Student of Qi

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"I came to bring not peace, but a sword."


I always like to say: "The sooner the forest burns to ashes the sooner fresh growth and new life can emerge."


And why should anyone listen to père Bouchacourt? He's the one who said "The Jews didn't commit Deicide"! Now he says "We want to protect the Faith of All Times, and for always."? I sure hope he means what he says this time.... This double speak is something we should distrust.

Well, it's about time folks start "waking up"!
Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

Offline Incredulous

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"I came to bring not peace, but a sword."


I always like to say: "The sooner the forest burns to ashes the sooner fresh growth and new life can emerge."


And why should anyone listen to père Bouchacourt? He's the one who said "The Jews didn't commit Deicide"! Now he says "We want to protect the Faith of All Times, and for always."? I sure hope he means what he says this time.... This double speak is something we should distrust.

Well, it's about time folks start "waking up"!

Yeah, the SSPX sell-out  has been unfolding like a classic Vatican II drama.

They, meaning Menzingen's handlers, don't want a clear-cut break from Tradition.  

They employ Psyops for the greatest level of doubt, disorientation and confusion, to misguide their flock.
"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

Offline Meg

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 And the tensions continued during the mass.  Fr. Bouchacourt, the district superior of France, explaining why he took the "difficult" decision to relieve the priest of St. Nicholas of Chardonnet, speaks only five minutes in the church crammed, when a third of the attendants rose and were Towards the exit.  "You may want to punish me," Father Bouchacourt said, " or punish your parish!  Around the entrance door, the group that was formed, composed essentially of young people, sang songs to the Virgin, while the faithful looked at each other in bewilderment, trying to understand the situation.  In the midst of those who remained seated, a young woman wept in the spectacle of divisions.  "Our Fraternity, founded by Monsignor Lefebvre for the sanctification of the priests is attacked, continued Fr. Bouchacourt.  They want to stir the division into it.  Satan is attacking her.  The FSSPX does not intend, by any means of the world, to abandon the fight of the faith.  My brothers, be persuaded.  We want to defend the faith of always, the mass of always, the sacraments of always and to reject the council that has poisoned and that poisons the Church from the interior and it autodestruye ".

 In the end, the discussions continued in the atrium.  "They are just some agitators who want to sow confusion , want to believe a faithful.  The majority of the parish is united and understands the decision of Fr. Bouchacourt. "  What if the agreement is concluded?  The answer was quick: "Has the prelature already been created?  No. We'll decide when it happens.  Meanwhile, it's a lot of noise for nothing. "  One thing is certain: if the possibility of a rapprochement with the lefebvristas makes teeth grind in the heart of the Catholic Church, it also provokes turbulence in the SSPX.  

The above two paragraphs are at the end of the article. While it states that one of the faithful in the atrium said...."They are just some agitators who want to sow confusion," I find that since one third of the crammed church walked out temporarily during the talk, that seems to me a lot of people. And I can imagine that there were quite a few who wanted to walk out, but for whatever reason decided not to, perhaps out of fear of how it would look. So I don't think it's a case of just some agitators. Though it must be rather stressful for the faithful who attend there now. God bless those who were brave enough to walk out.


Offline hermit urban

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Father La Rocque Is in favor of the agreement . He was given an order, evidently ... to detect those priests who do not want the agreement ... I explain myself:

La Rocque is a member of the GREC ... and is convinced that it is possible to celebrate mass in the vernacular:

http://Https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/p-de-la-rocque-sspx-the-tridentine-mass-may-be-celebrated-in-the-vernacul/

http://Http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com.ar/2015/07/p-de-la-rocque-fsspx-la-misa-tridentina.html

http://Http://aveclimmaculee.blogspot.com.ar/2013/06/labbe-de-la-rocque-et-la-legitimite-de.html

http://Http://wwwmileschristi.blogspot.com.ar/2015/09/censura-interna-en-la-fsspx.html

Bouchacourt orders him to "detect" those who do not agree. He detects them, makes them believe that he does not agree with the heretical agreement Roma - FSSPX traitor. They agree to write a letter stating their opposition to FSSPX marriages. The letter is published and read. All the misery, but even if Father La Rocque seems to be denigrated, for him, it will be like a little vacation ... and will have achieved its goal: to make visible those who are not with Fellay, priests and laity. The purge continues ..

It is what I think, because it is the "policy" of Bergoglio, step by step ...

Memory boys, memory please ...

Offline wallflower

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  "Our Fraternity, founded by Monsignor Lefebvre for the sanctification of the priests is attacked, continued Fr. Bouchacourt.  They want to stir the division into it.  

They are agitators

These types of statements, made all too frequently these days, really tick me off. Do we or do we not have an old interview of Bishop Fellay admitting a purely practical agreement would put a rift through the SSPX, yet he has continued all these years since this admission to strive after said purely practical agreement? To take on airs of victims now, as the innocent, surprised, caught-off-guard-when-all-they-ever-wanted-was-the-good-of-their-people superiors is really telling of the complete dishonesty they are fully and willfully engaged in.

As admirable as it is that a third walked out, I don't think any loss will phase these superiors. Their eyes are wide with all the conservative NOs that they think they'll attract. Heck, lucky Fr Vassal will now be the confessor that poor confused "George's" NO priest will go to once he is so impressed by the SSPX's recognition, remember?

Damage control, discrediting and replacing have been a principal component of their plans.

The only way I see them maybe taking notice is if half or more of the priests stood up together like those 7 and put up a real fight. But since France is the only country in an uproar over this after over a month ... it seems like it'll take no less than a miracle for that to happen. If any are addressing it privately -- IT'S NOT WORKING. And it doesn't help the parishioners to whom it looks like those priests are just going along, therefore they do too.

Offline wallflower

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oops, ^^^ faze, not phase. Didn't catch that one until too late.


Offline Meg

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These types of statements, made all too frequently these days, really tick me off. Do we or do we not have an old interview of Bishop Fellay admitting a purely practical agreement would put a rift through the SSPX, yet he has continued all these years since this admission to strive after said purely practical agreement? To take on airs of victims now, as the innocent, surprised, caught-off-guard-when-all-they-ever-wanted-was-the-good-of-their-people superiors is really telling of the complete dishonesty they are fully and willfully engaged in.

As admirable as it is that a third walked out, I don't think any loss will phase these superiors. Their eyes are wide with all the conservative NOs that they think they'll attract. Heck, lucky Fr Vassal will now be the confessor that poor confused "George's" NO priest will go to once he is so impressed by the SSPX's recognition, remember?

Damage control, discrediting and replacing have been a principal component of their plans.

The only way I see them maybe taking notice is if half or more of the priests stood up together like those 7 and put up a real fight. But since France is the only country in an uproar over this after over a month ... it seems like it'll take no less than a miracle for that to happen. If any are addressing it privately -- IT'S NOT WORKING. And it doesn't help the parishioners to whom it looks like those priests are just going along, therefore they do too.

I'm sorry to say that you may be right, wallflower. It doesn't seem to have phased the superiors at all that one third of the faithful walked out. Just as doesn't seem to have phased them that the 7 priors spoke out against the modernist dioceses interfering with marriage, except to accuse them of subversion and dismiss them.

Doesn't the SSPX leadership realize that some of those priors, who were dismissed from their priories, may go over to the Resistance? In doing so, the Resistance might only be strengthened, while the SSPX is weakened further still.


Offline Meg

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Father La Rocque Is in favor of the agreement . He was given an order, evidently ... to detect those priests who do not want the agreement ... I explain myself:

La Rocque is a member of the GREC ... and is convinced that it is possible to celebrate mass in the vernacular:

http://Https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/p-de-la-rocque-sspx-the-tridentine-mass-may-be-celebrated-in-the-vernacul/

http://Http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com.ar/2015/07/p-de-la-rocque-fsspx-la-misa-tridentina.html

http://Http://aveclimmaculee.blogspot.com.ar/2013/06/labbe-de-la-rocque-et-la-legitimite-de.html

http://Http://wwwmileschristi.blogspot.com.ar/2015/09/censura-interna-en-la-fsspx.html

Bouchacourt orders him to "detect" those who do not agree. He detects them, makes them believe that he does not agree with the heretical agreement Roma - FSSPX traitor. They agree to write a letter stating their opposition to FSSPX marriages. The letter is published and read. All the misery, but even if Father La Rocque seems to be denigrated, for him, it will be like a little vacation ... and will have achieved its goal: to make visible those who are not with Fellay, priests and laity. The purge continues ..

It is what I think, because it is the "policy" of Bergoglio, step by step ...

Memory boys, memory please ...

You may be right, However, I didn't get the impression from the statement of the 7 priors that they are against Fellay, or even against a reconciliation with Rome. What they are against is the meddling of the (modernist) diocesan authorities in marriages contracted by SSPX adherents. The 7 priors assumed that the SSPX would be accepted "as they are," and that necessarily means no interference from the diocesan modernists regarding marriage. That's my take on it anyway. I could be wrong.

Offline hermit urban

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True. They accept the Prelature and they are bothered by heretics intrusion into marriages. If they now condition them, with the Prelature they will be more conditioned, all to be accepted as they are. Something similar said a bishop to go on a plane to get a signature of the "pope" to approve his congregation, same idea in different words ...


Offline Truecharity

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The most explosive comment from the Bp. Fellay interview is perhaps this one:
Last year, I received a letter from Rome telling me: “You can freely ordain your priests without the permission of the local ordinary.” So if I can freely ordain, that means that the ordination is recognized by the Church, not just as valid but in order. If I can freely do it, it’s clear that this is just already recognized and accepted.

The Vatican giving blanket permission — not just toleration but permission — to Bp. Fellay to ordain freely, without requiring the authorization of the local Novus Ordo bishop in whose diocese the ordination takes place, indicates that the SSPX is already operating as a de factopersonal prelature. This will make the big day of reconciliation all the easier, since the Vatican will then only have to formalize legally and officially what has already been done in practice.

So, another interview, another step closer to “full communion” with the Modernist Sect, err,  “official Church”, as Bp. Fellay calls it. That final “stamp of approval” can’t be far off.


Offline Incredulous

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Bp. Fellay will "spin" and try to hide, is his full acceptance of Vatican II.

Menzingen"s tactic is to keep this fact hidden under the secrecy of "Prelature".

But Archbishop Pozzo is telling the truth, when he states the SSPX will accept Vatican II.

"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

Offline Matthew

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These types of statements, made all too frequently these days, really tick me off. Do we or do we not have an old interview of Bishop Fellay admitting a purely practical agreement would put a rift through the SSPX, yet he has continued all these years since this admission to strive after said purely practical agreement? To take on airs of victims now, as the innocent, surprised, caught-off-guard-when-all-they-ever-wanted-was-the-good-of-their-people superiors is really telling of the complete dishonesty they are fully and willfully engaged in.

Good catch, Wallflower. These are the kind of things it's easy to miss. A lot of people (ourselves included) can have short memories, since we're distracted with life, family, etc.

It's easy to remember "Bishop Fellay is working for an agreement with Rome" but let's put it this way: truth is one (easy to remember) and lies are many -- literally everything but the truth! How can we easily remember or keep track of all the lies, all the false propaganda, all the manipulation of the Faithful? It's very difficult.

I love it when people notice and point out things like this. Yes, indeed you are correct. Bishop Fellay DID say publicly he expects a "rift in the SSPX" and now he pretends division is totally unexpected. It's hard to lie consistently, without any contradictions. Really, it is. It's hard to keep your story straight.

Think deeply about it. It's hard to honestly pretend ignorance. For example: say you were stealing equipment from work. Your co-workers start talking about it. Do you A) totally ignore it, B) pretend you don't know anything, C) comment on what things you noticed missing, etc. because all the while, you're going to feel guilty and you'll be tempted to avoid the whole discussion *completely*. But that might make people more suspicious. Do you take the lead in the "investigation" and say that you've seen lots of things missing? Or would that make people more suspicious? See, it's much harder to lie than to tell the truth.

In fact, I would also add that it's much more difficult to lie if you're not a pathological liar to begin with. Most people, +Fellay included, have a conscience which will certainly bother them. 

This fact about the difficulty of lying -- and keeping one's story straight -- is what Bishop Fellay must have realized by now, or hopefully he will realize one day.
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Offline AJNC

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@Matthew:In fact, I would also add that it's much more difficult to lie if you're not a pathological liar to begin with. Most people, +Fellay included, have a conscience which will certainly bother them. This fact about the difficulty of lying -- and keeping one's story straight -- is what Bishop Fellay must have realized by now, or hopefully he will realize one day.

He won't if he's already a pathological liar.

 

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