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Author Topic: The Resistance and Obedience  (Read 1008 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The Resistance and Obedience
« on: March 17, 2018, 11:31:12 AM »
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    Matthew,

    Mr. G says:

    "For those who defend the new position of making a practical agreement before a doctrinal agreement, ask them this question: "If the next Superior General were to admit that it was imprudent to make a practical agreement first and that the SSPX will now go back to the previous position of doctrine first, then would you, as an SSPX supporter, agree with the new Superior General and admit the previous S.G. was imprudent or will you now admit the new S.G. is wrong and he should have continued the policy of the previous S.G.?"

    "I know someone who ask this question to strong supporter of Bishop Fellay's current position, and he did not get a response to this question."
     

    Well, let me provide a response.

    As regards the Society priests, since they owe obedience to the SG, they would be obliged to support the new SG's decision.  They might not agree, but they would have to obey.  That's what they committed to do when they joined the Society.

    That obedience would not involve any judgment about the relative merits of the position of +Fellay and his hypothetical successor.  Even if he thought that the successor were dead wrong, he would be obliged to support the decision.  That's what religious obedience is all about.  The SSPX is a religious institute governed by a rule that binds in conscience. That's why the rebels either quit (in violation of their obligations to the Society) or are sacked (because they violate their obligations of obedience).

    I have never seen any analysis of the obligations of obedience of the SSPX faithful to the decisions of the SG, but I would think that we SSPX faithful have a moral obligation to support to new SG.

    Note that for both priest and faithful, this does not involve any judgment about the relative merits of the former and current SG's decision.  It is a matter of obedience,

    In order to get around the requirement of disobedience, you have to spin +Fellay as another V2 modernist.  But when I think about +Fellay's two and a half hour conference in February, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the idea that the man who gave that conference and said the things that he said is another Montini or Wojtyla or Ratzinger or Bergoglio.

    At bottom, the problem with the members of the Resistance just don't want to obey anyone but themselves and those they choose to obey as long as they choose to obey them.  That's very American.  But is it very Catholic -- or Catholic at all..

    John McFarland  

    John McFarland sent me the above e-mail. I want to comment on it publicly, so here it is.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 11:47:44 AM »
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  • He is confusing the situation in 1970 with the situation today.

    Long story short, he is confusing the SSPX with the Catholic Church itself.

    Yes, the SSPX is part of the Catholic Church, but so is any other lifeboat (independent chapel). The SSPX is just the huge Wal-mart of lifeboats, that's all. And like Wal-mart, they like to put the little guy (independent chapels) out of business so they can get ever bigger, make more money, and take over more and more "territory".

    In the early 1970's, when my mom (for example) left the Novus Ordo for good -- before she had anything to replace it with, mind you -- she had some clear cut reasons. She was face with the full-blown Novus Ordo Mass, with the proverbial "dancing in the aisles". McFarland and others (including, quite ironically, my own mother!) point out that the SSPX and/or Bp. Fellay isn't this bad right now, so we have no similar justification to leave.

    However, they are confusing

    A) Leaving one's legitimate Parish, which has formal jurisdiction over all Catholics living in that area, under the local Bishop and ultimately the Pope.
    and
    B) Leaving a given lifeboat, saying "this one is sinking" or "this one is as good as sunk"

    I would posit that it takes much less evidence, or much smaller problems, to justify B).

    In some cases, such as in locations with 3 or 4 Traditional Mass options, you could leave a chapel because you didn't like the congregation, the choice of hymns, the architecture, or even the priest's accent! Now to be clear, I'm only saying it's ok to nitpick in this manner if you have other convenient choices for Mass. Some places have this luxury; most places do not.

    But a lifeboat has no default jurisdiction over ANY Catholics. Not even those who live right next to the chapel. Not even if that chapel is awesome, professional, has 2 million in the bank, has been around for 30 years, seats 1000, and has a parish directory of 2000 souls! Or if it was "the only game in town" for 30+ years. That STILL doesn't make it synonymous with the Catholic Church, they don't get any "free", "bonus" or "default" jurisdiction just because they grew to X size, and they are still no more legitimate than a small group having Mass in a converted garage or warehouse. Juridically speaking, using any possible objective measure THAT MATTERS, they are equals!

    Are you familiar with the Subsistit in debacle from Lumen Gentium (Vatican II docuмent)?

    Traditional:
    Church of Christ is (Latin est) the Catholic Church.
    Vatican II, Lumen Gentium:
    Church of Christ SUBSISTS IN the Catholic Church. (Implying the Church of Christ is LARGER than just the Catholic Church).

    Well, this is heretical when applied to the Catholic Church. But I'll tell you what: The truth is that the Catholic Church subsists in the SSPX. It would be false to say "The Catholic Church is the SSPX".

    It's downright scary when I talk to SSPX parishioners who have been frog-boiled for almost 6 years now. They are talking completely differently about the Crisis in the Church, Vatican II, the nature of the Traditional Movement, obedience, and every other topic.

    One small example: An older lady we were good friends with now believes our Resistance chapel is "disobedient". She never had this position before. She attends an SSPX chapel every Sunday (which is STILL not regularized with Rome, at least not publicly or officially). How does that work? So we all have to follow this group (SSPX) just because they're so big? Finders keepers, King of the Mountain, first dibs takes all? No one else gets to "compete" with their organization? They get some kind of default jurisdiction over all the Traditional Faithful because "they got there first"?

    This older lady friend must believe, deep down, that the SSPX is equivalent to the Catholic Church itself. She must believe that they have some (invisible) jurisdiction, which our little group doesn't have. How else could she charge us with being borderline schismatic, naughty, disobedient, etc.?

    That's what some pro-Fellay and accordistas believe regarding emergency-supplied jurisdiction for Episcopal consecrations. I've spoken to one, who basically said as much! "There was a state of necessity in 1988, but the SSPX got there first. Now there's no more necessity. Too bad for you. Obey us (the SSPX) or be schismatic. Have a nice day."

    That's ridiculous.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 12:01:31 PM »
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  • So according to John McFarland, it's legitimate to disobey a cleric/prelate/Pope when it's a direct matter of the Novus Ordo, but anything short of that we have to be blind sheep to the slaughter? For example, if a group or its leadership begins to publicly justify Vatican II, starts embracing more and more elements of the Conciliar Church, or takes steps towards union with an unconverted Modernist Conciliar Church?

    I say that if Vatican II and Modernism are that bad, then when ANY SIGNS appear that we're headed back there, it's justified and even required to jump ship. Propaganda is a reality, frog-boiling is a reality, and the human intellect being prone to error after The Fall is most certainly a reality. To deny any of those realities would be foolishness.

    The SSPX no longer believes that Vatican II was a superheresy that we have to completely avoid with a 100-foot pole. That's what I was taught as a Traditional Catholic. That's what I signed up for when I first attended the SSPX, and they are no longer holding that position.

    The original letter from Bishop Fellay LITERALLY DENIED, IN A MOCKING WAY, that Vatican II was a superheresy. He might as well have used the term "boogey man". Well, in my book, Vatican II IS a boogey man, it IS precisely a super-heresy, and you can't avoid it too much. Too little, yes. But not too much. Complete avoidance, complete aloofness, complete abstinence is the only way.


    Quote
    Depth: within the Society, we are in the process of making the Council's errors into super-heresies, as though it is becoming absolute evil, worse than anything, in the same way that Liberals have dogmatised this pastoral council.
    - Bishop Fellay, "Letter of the One to the Three bishops", May 2012
    First of all, there is no such thing as absolute evil. Even the devil has some good: he has existence. But Vatican II is not only evil but DANGEROUS because of how it mixes Catholic Truth with demonic error. It is certainly worthy of our complete avoidance.

    When you sup with the devil, you need to have a long spoon. Seriously though, Catholics are taught not to have any intercourse with the devil. Because once you open your mouth and begin negotiating with the devil, the next thing you know you're naked, penniless, and in some foreign country you've never seen before. You don't mess around with the demonic, including heresies created in the angelic intellects of demons. Not unless you want to get ensnared yourself.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 12:03:45 PM »
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    Three months of unretracted 2012 statements of His Lordship Bishop Bernard Fellay

    -April 14th : “We must not make of the Council a super heresy” (April 14th Menzingen letter)

    - April 15th: “the entire Tradition of the catholic faith must be the sole criteria and guide of the understanding of the teachings of the Council of Vatican II, which, in its turn, enlightens some aspects of the life and the doctrine of the Church that were implicitly present in her but not yet formulated. The affirmations of the Council of Vatican II and of the posterior Pontifical Magisterium concerning the relationship between the Catholic Church and non-catholic Christian confessions must be understood in the light of the entire Tradition.” (Extract of a Menzingen doctrinal declaration quoted publicly by Fr Pfluger in St Joseph des Carmes on June 05th)

    - May 11th: “Many things which we would have condemned as being from the Council are in fact not from the Council, but from the common understanding of it. (…) The Council is presenting a religious liberty which is in fact a very, very limited one. A very limited one. It would mean our talks with Rome, they clearly said that to mean that there would be a right to error or right to choose each religion, is false.”(Bishop Fellay, CNS interview in Menzingen)

    - June 08th:“As for the Council, when they asked me the question, “Does Vatican II belong to Tradition?”, I answered, “I would like to hope that that is the case.”” (Bishop Fellay, DICI, Interview)

    -July 14th: Insinuation that the Council of Vatican II is only tainted with error, but not to be discarded altogether on account of heresy, explicit or latent. (Declaration of the General Chapter in Econe) It is quite weaker than the Declaration of 1974.

    When I hear stuff like that, there is only one prudent, practical reaction for a Traditional Catholic:
    "Git while the gittin's good!"
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 12:19:34 PM »
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  • Sums it up succinctly (which is why I like memes)

    The funny thing is, some SSPX attendees call the Resistance disobedient. That's rich. Newsflash, people: the SSPX isn't approved by Rome (yet) either. By attending a SSPX Mass, you are disobedient.
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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 01:31:45 PM »
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  • have copied 2 or 3 posts here to read later

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: The Resistance and Obedience
    « Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 01:32:33 PM »
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  • I am glad to see the Mr. McFarland saw my question and decided to answer it, as he makes it clear what is the mind-set of some of the current SSPX supports, which is blind obedience. I am sure he would say that the situation between the Archbishop and the Vatican is not the same as the Resistance Priest and the SSPX leadership, because the Archbishop was dealing with matters of Faith. So then the question is not whether or not the Resistance Priests are rebels, but whether the issues and circuмstances coming from the new position of "practical agreement before doctrinal agreement" constitutes a matter of Faith and/or Morals. If so, the the persists who left after 2012 are justified if not, then they are not justified. But, what if the priests, in good conscious, even if they were misinformed, truly believed that issues are matters of Faith? Thus you cannot judge them to be rebels unless you know their interior motives, which God will be the judge and not Mr. McFarland.

    And if Mr. McFarland is reading, then would he care to explain the contradictions he made on the Remnant, which I previously mentioned:
    "He is also the one who admitted on the Remnant Forum that his son (Fr. McFarland) confirmed that the SSPX will only ask for marriage jurisdiction to those who are most likely to give jurisdiction but that the SSPX will not ask for jurisdiction from hostile bishops. In that case, the SSPX will use Supplied Jurisdiction. However, he failed to mention that Pope Francis told Bishop Fellay, that if a bishop refuses to give jurisdiction, then he (Pope) will give it to the SSPX, thus Supplied Jurisdiction can no longer be used because the Pope already said he will give it, yet the SSPX will do what they want, proving that they are the ones denying the Pope's authority in practice while at the same time accusing the Resistance of not recognizing the Pope's authority."