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Author Topic: Resistance Bishops- sede statements  (Read 2253 times)

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Offline Infirmus

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Resistance Bishops- sede statements
« on: March 26, 2025, 07:24:45 PM »
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  • Are there any statements from Bishop Williamson's bishops on their stands against sedevacantism?

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2025, 09:16:27 PM »
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  • “Gallican bishops - Catholic statements


    Are there any statements from Gallican bishops on their stands against Catholicism”
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2025, 09:42:54 PM »
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  • https://dominicansavrille.us/an-interview-with-fr-thomas-aquinas-osb/

    Interview with Fr. Thomas Aquinas, (sorry, exact date unknown for me. Sometime before he became a bishop. He was consecrated March 19, 2016). Would his response be valid for your research, speaking as yet a priest? Splitting hairs ¿?
    *******
    "...
    3. Father, last year, motivated by the consecration of Bishop Faure, the SSPX said that the Resistance is sedevacantist and that that is demonstrated by consecrating bishops without the permission of the Roman authorities. What is your response to this other accusation?

    In the very same way that Archbishop Lefebvre was not a sedevacantist, the Resistance is not sedevacantist, although within the Resistance there may be, just like in the SSPX there always were, sympathizers of this thesis.

    4. Father, what is your position regarding sedevacantism?
    I think that the position of Archbishop Lefebvre in this regards is the most sensible and the most prudent.  The Pope cannot use his authority to destroy the Church, so we don’t obey him in this work. We refuse to have any part in the destruction of the Church.  As far as deciding if the Pope has lost his pontificate because of this, it is a disputed issue.  We don’t have the means of withdrawing a conclusion that eliminates all doubt.  So then, with doubt, it is best to not affirm that the seat is vacant and continue to consider him the Pope. ..."

    *********
    Good news...Pope Francis is getting healthier and is out of hospital...but is his wheelchair the real CHAIR of St. Peter?



    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2025, 10:04:22 PM »
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  • We have hwew 38 Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments on Sedevacantism:
    https://stmarcelinitiative.org/tag/sedevacantism/

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2025, 10:20:52 PM »
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  • I vaguely remember that Bishop Faure founded a seminary, but before long it had sedes involved. .. Maybe that was the FIRST of many splits in the Resistance. 》》《《>>☆<<
    ******
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/bishop-williamson-sedevacantism-and-bishop-faure%27s-seminary/

    "...There was a split between the "non una cuм" priests and the "una cuм" priests in France. Bishop Williamson, Bishop Faure, Bishop Thomas Aquinas and Bishop Zendejas refused to continue to collaborate with the "non una cuм" priests : Father Nicolas Pinaud (France), Father Pierre Roy (Canada) and Father Olivier Rioult (France). Therefore, these sedevacantists priests no longer work with the Resistance bishops...."
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #5 on: March 27, 2025, 10:28:29 PM »
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  • Not really following the OP, sorry,  but Fr. Sherry articulates it, in a nutshell.
    *****
    https://fsspx.uk/sites/default/files/docuмents/IME%202025-01%20WEB.pdf

    "...As any child who learned his
    catechism could tell you, this is not
    true. To say that every religion leads
    to God is to speak heresy.2 ..."


    Footnote 2.  Let the sedevacantists resist the temptation to claim me among their number. It is incontrovertible
    that Pope Francis utters heresies, but this does not mean that he is not the Pope. In order for a
    churchman to lose his office, it is not enough that he utter a heresy; he must be warned by his superior
    that he is uttering a heresy and nonetheless persevere. That is why it is unjustified to conclude with
    certainty that Francis is not the Pope.
    ..."

    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #6 on: March 28, 2025, 12:24:48 PM »
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  • I believe that +Williamson and Avrille have made comments to the effect that SVism is not an unreasonable conclusion, but they felt it was anything but certain and just an opinion.

    Now, the tricky part of this is that most theologians consider the legitimacy of any given pope to be in the category of dogmatic fact (there's a minority opinion that it can only be moral certainty, and I hold an in-between position that it's partly dogmatic and partly moral ... but I won't digress).

    So given that most theologians hold the legitimacy of a pope to be dogmatic fact, if SVism is "possible" or "not unreasonable", then that contradicts the necessity by which we need to know the pope's legitimacy, and we're actually more in the papa dubius category, where papa dubius papa nullus.

    I've long held that this form of sede-doubtism where you at least hold there are DOUBTS would suffice to exonerate R&R types from schism ... except that for some reason a large majority of them hold that the legitacy of the V2 claimants is in fact dogmatically certain.

    But be honest with yourself.  Do you REALLY believe that it's AS CERTAIN that Jorge is pope as that God is Three Persons and that Jesus is God and Man?  Well, if you don't, then for all intents and purposes you don't have the requisite dogmatic certainty and therefore consider him a papa dubious and papa nullus.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #7 on: March 28, 2025, 12:35:37 PM »
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  • Now, the tricky part of this is that most theologians consider the legitimacy of any given pope to be in the category of dogmatic fact (there's a minority opinion that it can only be moral certainty, and I hold an in-between position that it's partly dogmatic and partly moral ... but I won't digress).

    But if the legitimacy of a particular pope is not in the category of a dogmatic fact, then how can we be dogmatically certain of any dogma promulgated by that same particular pope? 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #8 on: March 28, 2025, 12:50:07 PM »
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  • But if the legitimacy of a particular pope is not in the category of a dogmatic fact, then how can we be dogmatically certain of any dogma promulgated by that same particular pope?

    That's a digression that's beyond the scope of this thread, but there is a minority opinion that considers the certainty regarding promulgated dogmas to be a combination of the Universal Church's acceptance and adherence to them together with papal promulgation.

    Let's take the dogmatic definition of the dogma of infallibility.  To say that the dogmatic definition of infallibility is dogmatically certain because it's certain that Pius IX was the pope is rather circular.  If you don't believe in papal infallibility in the first place, then you wouldn't accept it merely on the basis of Pius IX's definition ... just as the Old Catholics rejected it.  But if you look  at Pius IX's argument against and condemnation of the Old Catholics, he appealed to the overall indefectibility of the Universal Church in accepting the dogma.  So IMO there's some kind of continuation of that same principle at work.

    Let's say some guy had transgender surgery and then hormone therapy, etc. to the point you couldn't tell he wasn't a man, but then got elected Pope.  Or let's say that they did in fact imprison Paul VI in a dungeon and put some imposter out there.  Let's say a Pope were, oh, invalidly elected.

    How can you be DOGMATICALLY certain that none of these conditions apply?  In and of itself you can't, and therefore there can be no dogmatic certainty about such matters.  Now, the appeal then goes to God's Providence for the Church, i.e. that the Church could not be fooled into accepting a false Pope.  I put that into the same category of "pious believe" that St. Robert ascribed to his opinion regarding a heretic pope.  But it's not theologically impossible for there to be a case of mistaken identity OR a case of uncertain identity (the Great Western Schism).  Some even go so far as to have invented based on this pious believe the notion of "Universal Acceptance", but the principle it rests on would be that the Ecclesia Credens can't accept a false rule of faith.  Well, the entire Church cannot accept a false dogma, so that alone would suffice for how a dogma can be dogmatically certain without the need to posit that the identity of the Pope is dogmatically certain, just as it sufficed during the definition of papal infallibility itself.

    So the Church's inabillity to accept false dogma combined with a moral certainty regarding the identity of a Pope suffice to dogmatically guarantee the dogma itself, without having to posit an independent dogmatic certainty regarding something that is not INTRINSICALLY knowable with dogmatic certainty, since, after all, how is it in the Deposit of Faith that THIS MAN, Jorge, is currently the legitimate Pope?  It's not and cannot be part of the Deposit, and that's the thinking of those theologians who consider papal legitimacy to NOT be dogmatic fact.

    So ... I digressed anyway.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #9 on: March 29, 2025, 08:42:49 AM »
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  • That's a digression that's beyond the scope of this thread, but there is a minority opinion that considers the certainty regarding promulgated dogmas to be a combination of the Universal Church's acceptance and adherence to them together with papal promulgation.

    Let's take the dogmatic definition of the dogma of infallibility.  To say that the dogmatic definition of infallibility is dogmatically certain because it's certain that Pius IX was the pope is rather circular.  If you don't believe in papal infallibility in the first place, then you wouldn't accept it merely on the basis of Pius IX's definition ... just as the Old Catholics rejected it.  But if you look  at Pius IX's argument against and condemnation of the Old Catholics, he appealed to the overall indefectibility of the Universal Church in accepting the dogma.  So IMO there's some kind of continuation of that same principle at work.

    Let's say some guy had transgender surgery and then hormone therapy, etc. to the point you couldn't tell he wasn't a man, but then got elected Pope.  Or let's say that they did in fact imprison Paul VI in a dungeon and put some imposter out there.  Let's say a Pope were, oh, invalidly elected.

    How can you be DOGMATICALLY certain that none of these conditions apply?  In and of itself you can't, and therefore there can be no dogmatic certainty about such matters.  Now, the appeal then goes to God's Providence for the Church, i.e. that the Church could not be fooled into accepting a false Pope.  I put that into the same category of "pious believe" that St. Robert ascribed to his opinion regarding a heretic pope.  But it's not theologically impossible for there to be a case of mistaken identity OR a case of uncertain identity (the Great Western Schism).  Some even go so far as to have invented based on this pious believe the notion of "Universal Acceptance", but the principle it rests on would be that the Ecclesia Credens can't accept a false rule of faith.  Well, the entire Church cannot accept a false dogma, so that alone would suffice for how a dogma can be dogmatically certain without the need to posit that the identity of the Pope is dogmatically certain, just as it sufficed during the definition of papal infallibility itself.

    So the Church's inabillity to accept false dogma combined with a moral certainty regarding the identity of a Pope suffice to dogmatically guarantee the dogma itself, without having to posit an independent dogmatic certainty regarding something that is not INTRINSICALLY knowable with dogmatic certainty, since, after all, how is it in the Deposit of Faith that THIS MAN, Jorge, is currently the legitimate Pope?  It's not and cannot be part of the Deposit, and that's the thinking of those theologians who consider papal legitimacy to NOT be dogmatic fact.

    So ... I digressed anyway.

    Hmm.  Interesting.  Thank you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Resistance Bishops- sede statements
    « Reply #10 on: March 29, 2025, 10:35:21 AM »
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  • Hmm.  Interesting.  Thank you.

    Yeah, I did not know this opinion was out there, but after I read their logic, it made sense.  How can you say that it's basically revealed dogma that any Pope is the legitmate Pope (prescinding from the case of Jorge), since by definition a dogma must have been part of the Deposit of Revelation.  Pacelli had not been born before the Last Apostle died.  That made a ton of sense to me.  Of course you still have to have dogmatic certainty regarding any defined dogma, but IMO that can happen independently of dogmatic certainty regarding the legitimacy of a given pope, since the indefectibility of the Church in accepting said dogma was the principle Pius IX invoked when condemning the Old Catholics in etsi multa.  Indeed to argue that "I'm infallible because I just infallibly defined that I'm infallible" ... could be problematic.  So he appealed to a principle independent of papal infallibility to assert dogmatic certainty.