Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on October 05, 2023, 12:22:56 PM
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With a single cancelled speech, Vigano has just brought the pope question to the mainstream Church.
Whether by Cajetan/JST, St. Bellarmine, or his own defective intention theory, he’s got them all talking about papal legitimacy, and has by his personal charisma, acuмen, and stature, endowed that conversation with merit and respectability.
In other words, he has kindled a fire which is not likely to be doused, and which represents a necessary starting point for extricating the Church from its 61-65 year quagmire.
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Dear Sean,
God's will is sometimes drawn with a crooked finger. What if Michael Matt did us all a favor by thinking of his checkbook instead of Truth. Have you noticed that MM appears to be to Trad. Inc. what Glenn Beck is to "conservative patriots"? The "handlers" of the controlled opposition?
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In other words, he has kindled a fire which is not likely to be doused, and which represents a necessary starting point for extricating the Church from its 61-65 year quagmire.
Well, it'll remove about 10 years of the 61-65. That's the main problem I have with the focus on Bergoglio. Maybe as a tactical thing, as a start, but it's barely the (ugly) tip of the Conciliar iceberg.
What I'm concerned about is that if they DO get rid of Jorge and produce another Ratzinger-type pseudo-Trad, this will lead to a complacency that the problem has been solved, and rejoicing that we have returned to the Ratzinger era as the promised land.
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With a single cancelled speech, Vigano has just brought the pope question to the mainstream Church.
Whether by Cajetan/JST, St. Bellarmine, or his own defective intention theory, he’s got them all talking about papal legitimacy, and has by his personal charisma, acuмen, and stature, endowed that conversation with merit and respectability.
In other words, he has kindled a fire which is not likely to be doused, and which represents a necessary starting point for extricating the Church from its 61-65 year quagmire.
Have you checked the French Resistance sites, to see if it is being discussed there?
I see Non Possmus has the video up and so does Agenda Fatima, but what about any other SAJM friendly sites?
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Well, it'll remove about 10 years of the 61-65. That's the main problem I have with the focus on Bergoglio. Maybe as a tactical thing, as a start, but it's barely the (ugly) tip of the Conciliar iceberg.
What I'm concerned about is that if they DO get rid of Jorge and produce another Ratzinger-type pseudo-Trad, this will lead to a complacency that the problem has been solved, and rejoicing that we have returned to the Ratzinger era as the promised land.
I agree, too many "Trads" thought that Benedict was a "Traditional" Pope and he was nothing of the sort. In many ways he is worse than Francis, at least with Francis you see what you get; not so with Benedict he hid his true self behind a facade. The Burke's of the church want another Pope just like Benedict.
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Have you checked the French Resistance sites, to see if it is being discussed there?
I see Non Possmus has the video up and so does Agenda Fatima, but what about any other SAJM friendly sites?
After a quick check:
-Nothing on the SAJM website
-Nothing on Fr. Rousseau's website
-Nothing on the Avrille Dominicans' French or American websites
Are the French even aware of this English-language/venue speech?
However, when checking Fr. Rioult's website (sedevacantist), I was surprised to run across this advertisement of his latest book defending the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration (which I think is a first for a sedevacantist):
"Memoire in favor of the validity of the new Rite of Episcopal Consecration promulgated in 1968 by Paul VI"
by Abbé Olivier Rioult | Oct 2, 2023 | Abbé Rioult
Since the conciliar revolution, there has been no shortage of works denying the validity of the sacraments issued by Vatican II. These include works by Rama P. Coomaraswamy, Father Anthony Cekada and the Rore Sanctifica committee, to name but a few. We have never been totally convinced by these docuмents. Nor did we find their main refutations, those of Fr. Pierre-Marie O.P. and Abbé Alvaro Calderon F.S.S.P.X., fully satisfactory.
As the years have gone by and we've read a number of magisterial docuмents, theological conclusions and historical facts, our initial feelings on the matter have been confirmed and we've been given the decisive arguments we were lacking.
The following remarks are not intended to justify or promote the reforms of Vatican II, nor to judge their goodness, usefulness or legality. They deal solely with the sacramental validity of episcopal consecration.
Since this is theology, the argument from authority will come first. Two recent magisterial teachings that are binding in conscience are invoked on the issue at hand: that of Pius XII on the essential form, and that of Leo XIII on the minister's intention. We'll look at these teachings to see how they can shed relevant light on our subject. But first, we'll give a historical overview of sacramental theology, followed by an account of the problems posed by the magisterium's first major intervention on the sacrament of Holy Orders: that of Eugene IV.
We have decided to provide the faithful with a broad development of the doctrines involved, to give them sufficient food for thought, and to enlighten souls on these subjects which so easily trouble consciences in these times of trial...
You can order by printing the order form (PDF) or online from the Éditions Saint Agobard store."
https://www.lasapiniere.info/archives/6048
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After a quick check:
-Nothing on the SAJM website
...
However, when checking Fr. Rioult's website (sedevacantist), I was surprised to run across this advertisement of his latest book defending the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration (which I think is a first for a sedevacantist):
...
Does he identify himself as a 1958 Sedevacantist or does he just not accept Francis as Pope and accepts all the others?
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After a quick check:
-Nothing on the SAJM website
-Nothing on Fr. Rousseau's website
-Nothing on the Avrille Dominicans' French or American websites
Are the French even aware of this English-language/venue speech?
However, when checking Fr. Rioult's website (sedevacantist), I was surprised to run across this advertisement of his latest book defending the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration (which I think is a first for a sedevacantist):
"Memoire in favor of the validity of the new Rite of Episcopal Consecration promulgated in 1968 by Paul VI"
by Abbé Olivier Rioult | Oct 2, 2023 | Abbé Rioult
Since the conciliar revolution, there has been no shortage of works denying the validity of the sacraments issued by Vatican II. These include works by Rama P. Coomaraswamy, Father Anthony Cekada and the Rore Sanctifica committee, to name but a few. We have never been totally convinced by these docuмents. Nor did we find their main refutations, those of Fr. Pierre-Marie O.P. and Abbé Alvaro Calderon F.S.S.P.X., fully satisfactory.
As the years have gone by and we've read a number of magisterial docuмents, theological conclusions and historical facts, our initial feelings on the matter have been confirmed and we've been given the decisive arguments we were lacking.
The following remarks are not intended to justify or promote the reforms of Vatican II, nor to judge their goodness, usefulness or legality. They deal solely with the sacramental validity of episcopal consecration.
Since this is theology, the argument from authority will come first. Two recent magisterial teachings that are binding in conscience are invoked on the issue at hand: that of Pius XII on the essential form, and that of Leo XIII on the minister's intention. We'll look at these teachings to see how they can shed relevant light on our subject. But first, we'll give a historical overview of sacramental theology, followed by an account of the problems posed by the magisterium's first major intervention on the sacrament of Holy Orders: that of Eugene IV.
We have decided to provide the faithful with a broad development of the doctrines involved, to give them sufficient food for thought, and to enlighten souls on these subjects which so easily trouble consciences in these times of trial...
You can order by printing the order form (PDF) or online from the Éditions Saint Agobard store."
https://www.lasapiniere.info/archives/6048
Can someone who knows French translate Fr. Rioult's book into English?
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With a single cancelled speech, Vigano has just brought the pope question to the mainstream Church.
Whether by Cajetan/JST, St. Bellarmine, or his own defective intention theory, he’s got them all talking about papal legitimacy, and has by his personal charisma, acuмen, and stature, endowed that conversation with merit and respectability.
In other words, he has kindled a fire which is not likely to be doused, and which represents a necessary starting point for extricating the Church from its 61-65 year quagmire.
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Yes, he definitely shifted the Overton window.
I hope it starts a huge public discussion on the pope question as well.
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Can someone who knows French translate Fr. Rioult's book into English?
It is copywrited.
In case some don't recognize his name, he was the author of the 2012 Resistance book, The Impossible Reconciliation (i.e., a play on the title of the GREC book Toward a Necessary Reconciliation by Fr. Michel LeLong).
He was expelled from the SSPX in 2012.
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Does he identify himself as a 1958 Sedevacantist or does he just not accept Francis as Pope and accepts all the others?
He rejects all the conciliar popes.
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Yes, he definitely shifted the Overton window.
I hope it starts a huge public discussion on the pope question as well.
There's a lot regarding that topic converging all at the same time:
1) Vigano speech
2) Dubia
3) Schneider (inept position, but discussing the issue nevertheless)
4) Fr. Rioult's book
Prediction: SSPX soon to release defense of Francis.
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Prediction: SSPX soon to release defense of Francis.
:laugh1: Father Paul Robinson: Francis the Humble
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:laugh1: Father Paul Robinson: Francis the Humble
😂👍
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For some reason the book cannot be delivered to Texas. Suggestions?
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Dear Texana,
It took me a while but you can order the book here:
https://www.chire.fr/memoire-en-faveur-de-la-validite-du-nouveau-rite-de-la-consecration-episcopale-promulgue-en-1968-par-paul-vi-p-285010
The bookstore is in Paris. Shipping cost is a little bit high but it's worth it. Many trad titles.