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Author Topic: The Conversion of Rome:  (Read 1149 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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The Conversion of Rome:
« on: July 03, 2013, 08:42:43 AM »
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    Another of the debatable new ideas circulating amongst the present authorities of the SSPX is the idea that it is not practical to wait for the "conversion of Rome" before striking a deal for regularization.

    As Fr Themann says in his "Resistance to What?" conference, "That pretty much means the end of the crisis...that is quite a thing to say."

    Implicit in this new perspective is a glaring lack of the theological virtue of hope.

    Certainly, in human terms, the conversion of Rome seems to be nowhere in sight.

    But God's ways are not our ways, and there is scriptural precedent to show that He prefers to refrain from intervening until all seems lost, in order that men do not attribute the victory to their own devices, but that the glory of God is manifestly the cause.

    The SSPX used to have this supernatural virtue of hope, as evinced by the following words of Bishop Fellay:

    The day will come, we are sure and certain, when Rome will come back to Rome's own Tradition and restore it to its rightful place, and we long with all our hearts for that blessed day. For the time being, however, things are not yet at that point, and to foster illusions would be deadly for the SSPX, as we can see, when we follow the turn of events in Campos."

    (Superior General's Letter to Friends & Benefactors" # 63 6 January 2003)

    But all that said, some have asked, "In what does the conversion of Rome concist?"

    It could concist in nothing more than this: The unmistakable conversion of the Roman Pontiff.

    If Menzingen wanted to be "realistic" as they say, I do not see why the conversion of the Pope seems to be so far-fetched and impractical a criteria.

    This should be the minimal requirement for a practical accord, and would be acceptable to all sides, because a St. Piux X-type Pope would have the courage and doctrine to restore order in the Church.

    It would be faithful to the requirement of Archbishop Lefebvre, insofar as the conversion of an unmistakeably traditional Pope is the cornerstone and primary influencer for the entire Church, and a Pope of the type we are describing would not shrink from taking the necessary means of re-establishing order.

    Certainly he will be martyred when his motives are perceived, but then we will rally to his cause, and unity will be restored......with the basis in doctrine.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline bowler

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #1 on: July 03, 2013, 09:20:09 AM »
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    The day will come, we are sure and certain, when Rome will come back to Rome's own Tradition and restore it to its rightful place, and we long with all our hearts for that blessed day. For the time being, however, things are not yet at that point, and to foster illusions would be deadly for the SSPX, as we can see, when we follow the turn of events in Campos."

    (Superior General's Letter to Friends & Benefactors" # 63 6 January 2003)


    I guess either Bp. Fellay caved in, or the day has come that we know for certain that Rome has come back to tradition.

    There are no other options.


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #2 on: July 03, 2013, 09:47:26 AM »
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  • Why is this conversion of Rome so problematic now for the SSPX authorities?  Why was not this a problem just a couple of years ago?

    Offline hugeman

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #3 on: July 03, 2013, 11:03:16 AM »
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  • The Conversion of Rome has always and forever meant the same thing: Rome has to teach the faith-- The Catholic faith, whole and integral!
       We recall the early days of this battle: "Oh-- just send a letter to the pope (Paul VI), he's really on our side, he wants to do what's right, but "they" are keeping him prisoner!" Yeah, right-- how many of us fell for that, and stayed in the pews until they changed our beliefs?
       When the Archbishop stated that he would "never again" allow himself to be put in such a situation (in which he allowed Rome to have all the cards, and he lost all power to protect Catholicism), he very obviously meant that Rome had to return to the faith-- the Catholic faith! That's why he listed the encyclicals to which "Rome" would have to agree; that's why he delineated the minimum of  the papal teachings to which "Rome" would have to specifically agree. Otherwise-- there would be no basis for agreement! There would, therefore, be no further "negotiations". PERIOD.
       Pope Leo XIII spelled out the principle that the Archbishop followed quite clearly:
    "We have no need to join your confabs and conferences-- when you want to speak to us of the true One, Holy, Catholic faith, we are available. Right here. We have the true faith." (paraphrased).
       Father Schmidberger, and Bishop Fellay knew this quite well. When Father Schmidberger travelled throughout the districts at the behest of Fellay, his bible in hand, reading passage after passage from the bible trying to convince the faithful that it was our duty to "save" these romans who didn't want salvation, he was trying to mute the memory of the Archbishop and his demand that they convert BACK to Roman Catholicism before we consider reuniting.
       When Bishop Fellay put forth his three "pre-conditions" to discussions with Rome, , he cleverly  twisted the Archbishops demand that Rome convert into the nebulous  "Doctrinal Discussions", ala " Let's all sit around a big table and sing "kumbaya my lord, kumbaya! Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya!"
        There was never any doubt in the Archbishop's mind as to what he meant by "they must come back to the faith" Archbishop Lefebvre knew his Catholic faith-- and he thought that Schmidberger and Fellay knew it also!
      So, when Bishop Fellay was pushing the "doctrinal discussions", he knew very well that the traditional Catholics would interpret that term to mean "Tell Rome what's wrong and get them to convert back to the true faith." There was nobody in the pews in SSPX chapels who would have dreamed that Fellay really meant "We (the SSPX) tell Rome what we believe, Rome refuses to change, but we make an agreement anyway!"
        And how can we say this? Because the entire justification for the training and ordination of priests, for the operating of chapels, for the dispensing of sacraments, etc., etc., etc., was (that) the Catholic Church was in a state of emergency because the Bishops and Cardinals had LOST the Catholic faith, were adopting heretical views and un-catholic worship practices, and we ( the SSPX) had a God-given right to preserve the faith. So, obviously, the purpose of "Doctrinal Discussions" was to help rome CONVERT to the Catholic faith-- not to convert the SSPX faithful to the conciliar religion!
       And to that end, Msgr. Fellay asked that all news of the "discussions" be held back, to allow a "free and uninhibited exchange of thought, learning and ideas.' Of course, Fellay promised, when the discussions were over, a complete report would be available. Instead, the only report we received was a comment by Bp deGalaretta, at the close of the discussions, that "there can be no agreement--they(Rome) does not have the faith."  (There was, also, some write-ups in the Novus Ordo papers  of one of the theologians' opinions as to why there can be no agreements).
        So, the faithful got snookered. Like a true modernist, Msgr Fellay uses words which have a certain, Catholic meaning with the faithful, yet uses them in a way which allows rome to play with them. At his "conclusory" meeting of the "discussions" to which he was summoned, Fellay relates he asked: "But what of the discussions--I thought we were going over them?", to which "Rome" replied: "Oh no, silly, silly boy-- we don't need to go over them. We KNOW where we stand-- we just wanted to know where you stand-- There's no need to go over anything (because we are not changing our unCatholic beliefs!); Now, silly boy, just sign this declaration that you have been promising us since 1997 (through GREC), and we can get on with an accord." (paraphrased).

         So, there is absolutely no doubt what "the conversion of Rome" meant. And , just maybe, this is why the prayers of the SSPX are impotent: If the leaders of the SSPX believe that the "conversion of Rome" means a "deal with the devil", how in the world is Our Lady or Our Lord, or ANY Saint in heaven, EVER going to grant the "conversion of Russia" or the "conversion of sinners" , when those petitioning for the conversions have NO IDEA what conversion means?
        You can be sure, however, that the Archbishop knew what conversion meant. he knew what it meant to get heretics out of their false religions. he knew what Almighty God meant by demanding that the false altars be torn down-- because that is what he did in Africa! He helped bring Christianity to a pagan land by convertying them OUT of their false beliefs-- not by making an agreement that they can stay IN their false faith. And that's why he stated ,"never again will i be put in that position. Now I insist they convert first!"
         It is a sad, sad, lack of faith in Almighty God. That Catholics (or former Catholic) all around you have dropped the faith, but kept all the trappings (or most of them, anyway), and the leadership of the SSPX, instead of confirming their supposed brethren in the true faith, they make a deal so as to join in their false faith!
       

    Offline B from A

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 11:11:31 AM »
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    Archbishop Lefebvre: “supposing that Rome calls for a renewed dialogue, then, I will put conditions. I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue. No more.
    I will place the discussion at the doctrinal level: “Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you? Do you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei and Libertas of Leo XIII, Pascendi Gregis of Pius X, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Humani Generis of Pius XII? Are you in full communion with these Popes and their teachings? Do you still accept the entire Anti-Modernist Oath? Are you in favor of the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ? If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is useless to talk! As long as you do not accept the correction of the Council, in consideration of the doctrine of these Popes, your predecessors, no dialogue is possible. It is useless.””

    (Fideliter n. 66 nov-dec 1988, pp. 12-13).


    Offline hollingsworth

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 02:23:26 PM »
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  • ABL Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    “supposing that Rome calls for a renewed dialogue, then, I will put conditions. I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue. No more.
    I will place the discussion at the doctrinal level: “Do you agree with the great encyclicals of all the popes who preceded you? Do you agree with Quanta Cura of Pius IX, Immortale Dei and Libertas of Leo XIII, Pascendi Gregis of Pius X, Quas Primas of Pius XI, Humani Generis of Pius XII? Are you in full communion with these Popes and their teachings? Do you still accept the entire Anti-Modernist Oath? Are you in favor of the social reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ? If you do not accept the doctrine of your predecessors, it is useless to talk! As long as you do not accept the correction of the Council, in consideration of the doctrine of these Popes, your predecessors, no dialogue is possible. It is useless.””


    ABL wrote: I shall not accept being in the position where I was put during the dialogue.(leading up to the signing of the Protocol, I presume)
    That was ABL's closing position.  He never deviated from it until his death.  It would appear, though, that the present regime has.  


    Offline songbird

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    The Conversion of Rome:
    « Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 04:53:30 PM »
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  • In the Angles Magazine for May 2002, bishop Fellay speaks of Rome and Campos.  The Pope singed an agreement with Campos to establish something like a military ordinariate, which would give the Priestly Union its own bishop with true jurisdiction over his subjects.   But it is not true?  The agreement is to establish an apostolic administration which receives only an auxiliary bishop while the local ordinary retains all Episcopal jurisdiction.  Bishop Perl has already said it will be a bi-ritual bishop.

     There it is "bi-ritual.  One who celebrates both old and new masses.  This bishop, said Bishop Perl, "will little by little bring the priests of the apostolic administration to the "New Mass" and so also the faithful.  Fr. Georges Cottier, the Pope's personal theologian commended the important step and here is the acceptance of the Council.  "little by little we must expect other steps. That they also participate in concelebrations in the reformed rite (New Mass) However, we must not be in a hurry.  " Rome expects the entire administration to go over to the New Mass.

     Campos is contented because Rome has recognized Tradition in Campos. So, is this the case?  And Bishop Fellay is doing just this?   So, this New Mass, is known to Rome as the Ancient Rite.  

    This is how it goes:  The Assyrians and Chaldeans have a Mass, but it has no words of consecration, no words of the institution.  This Mass is called the Anaphora of Addai and Mari. Cardinal Ratzinger said that this mass was valid. Rome says," The words of Consecration are spread around the whole mass. Manuscripts from the 1st century show missing words of Consecration because the words were considered so holy that they shouldn't be written so they might not be polluted or profaned by contact with pagans.  The Priests knew the words and said them.

    So, is this what Bishop Fellay desires to implement?  In my opinion, yes, that is what the SSPX was up to with Rome for so long.