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Author Topic: The American Turkey Indult  (Read 45551 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: The American Turkey Indult
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2019, 06:32:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 29, 2019, 01:16:07 PM
    Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.

    Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
    I didn't eat meat this year.  I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.)  Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #76 on: December 29, 2019, 08:21:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on December 29, 2019, 06:32:37 PM
    I didn't eat meat this year.  I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.)  Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
    I did not ask the eparchy myself, but I did talk with the cantor (and de facto parish leader), and he was not familiar with it from the eparchy.

    Refugees from the roman rite attending an eastern parish are bound by the roman rite rules, of course, unless they change rites, which is a process.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #77 on: December 29, 2019, 08:44:10 PM »
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    Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
    The Latin Rite still obligates meatless fridays, except it allows one to substitute the penance for another of equal weight.  Certainly this is big liberalization but the penance still remains.  It is said that the friday penance is of Apostolic origin so that's why both (and I think all) rites have it.  I doubt that the Church/pope is allowed to get rid of it, being it is of Apostolic (possibly Divine?) origin.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #78 on: December 29, 2019, 09:47:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 29, 2019, 08:44:10 PM
    The Latin Rite still obligates meatless fridays, except it allows one to substitute the penance for another of equal weight.  Certainly this is big liberalization but the penance still remains.  It is said that the friday penance is of Apostolic origin so that's why both (and I think all) rites have it.  I doubt that the Church/pope is allowed to get rid of it, being it is of Apostolic (possibly Divine?) origin.
    I’m certain you’re not right on this. I believe that in all Spanish speaking countries they do not abstain from meat on Fridays. If memory serves me, this dispensation was granted by Pope Saint Pius V after the victory of Lepanto or possibly for Spanish help during the Crusades.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #79 on: December 29, 2019, 10:46:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 29, 2019, 09:47:12 PM
    I’m certain you’re not right on this. I believe that in all Spanish speaking countries they do not abstain from meat on Fridays. If memory serves me, this dispensation was granted by Pope Saint Pius V after the victory of Lepanto or possibly for Spanish help during the Crusades.
    Both, according to TIME magazine, 1951: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,815001,00.html

    It was originally given to Spain in 1089 for help with the Crusades, then expanded to all Spanish countries by St. Pius V after Lepanto.

    But the rules given by Spain's Bishops Conference (1986) has abstinence on Fridays in Lent, and some penance on other Fridays.
    https://conferenciaepiscopal.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_El_modo_de_observar_el_ayuno_y_la_abstinencia.pdf
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://conferenciaepiscopal.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_El_modo_de_observar_el_ayuno_y_la_abstinencia.pdf
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    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #80 on: December 29, 2019, 11:02:12 PM »
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    • Given the terms of what was granted, on what basis can it be argued that abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving is dispensed today?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #81 on: December 30, 2019, 07:19:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 29, 2019, 11:02:12 PM
    Given the terms of what was granted, on what basis can it be argued that abstinence on the Friday after Thanksgiving is dispensed today?
    For those who hold the sedevacantist position, one would have to appeal to epikeia, which frankly I find a bit of a stretch.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #82 on: December 30, 2019, 07:46:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 30, 2019, 07:19:03 AM
    For those who hold the sedevacantist position, one would have to appeal to epikeia, which frankly I find a bit of a stretch.
    Sorry, I should have added: Providing that it could be proven that the indult was established under Pope Pius XII or before.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #83 on: December 30, 2019, 07:53:51 AM »
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    • Sure wish there was a certain Father Collins here to speak to about these findings.    :'(
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #84 on: December 30, 2019, 08:23:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 30, 2019, 07:53:51 AM
    Sure wish there was a certain Father Collins here to speak to about these findings.    :'(
    How true!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #85 on: December 30, 2019, 09:08:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on December 29, 2019, 06:32:37 PM
    I didn't eat meat this year.  I'm not a Sedevacantist, but I wasn't sure if the indult was real, and even if it is, I didn't know if it applied to Byzantine Catholics (I'm Ukrainian Rite.)  Not eating meat on any fridays of the year actually is still binding on us too, unlike the Latin Rite.
    Ages ago I spent time in a Eastern Catholic monastery, the priest though having faculties for both East and Trad West. I found the fasting/abstinence to be of greater severity, not that this is a bad thing.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #86 on: December 30, 2019, 09:18:29 AM »
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    I’m certain you’re not right on this. ...this dispensation was granted ...
    A dispensation necessarily implies a general rule, which is friday penance, which is a universal church discipline from Apostolic times.  The friday penance NORMALLY is abstinence from meat, but other penances (or dispensations) allow for a substitution.  Yet, the general rule of friday penance still remains.
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    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #87 on: December 30, 2019, 01:55:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 30, 2019, 09:18:29 AM
    A dispensation necessarily implies a general rule, which is friday penance, which is a universal church discipline from Apostolic times.  The friday penance NORMALLY is abstinence from meat, but other penances (or dispensations) allow for a substitution.  Yet, the general rule of friday penance still remains.
    I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #88 on: January 01, 2020, 01:14:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 29, 2019, 08:21:57 PM
    I did not ask the eparchy myself, but I did talk with the cantor (and de facto parish leader), and he was not familiar with it from the eparchy.

    Refugees from the roman rite attending an eastern parish are bound by the roman rite rules, of course, unless they change rites, which is a process.
    I started as a Protestant and converted directly into the Byzantine rite, so I’m almost certain I’m bound by Byzantine rules unless there’s something obscure related to ancestry.  My moms parents were Roman rite Catholics and mom May have been baptized one before becoming Protestant at a super young age.  I was baptized in a Protestant “church”
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #89 on: January 01, 2020, 01:18:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on December 30, 2019, 09:08:23 AM
    Ages ago I spent time in a Eastern Catholic monastery, the priest though having faculties for both East and Trad West. I found the fasting/abstinence to be of greater severity, not that this is a bad thing.
    In the Ukrainian rite specifically the rules have been somewhat laxened post Vatican ii though still not as much as in the current latin rite.  I believe some of the other eastern rites may follow the Eastern Orthodox equivalents 
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