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Author Topic: The American Turkey Indult  (Read 45543 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: The American Turkey Indult
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2019, 07:19:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 27, 2019, 06:54:35 PM
    On another note, has anyone else ever heard of John XXIII's jejunium gaudiosum on Christmas Eve?

    You can say a lot about Roncalli, but you can't say that he did not enjoy food.
    😂😂😂
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #61 on: December 28, 2019, 09:36:18 PM »
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    • 1957 is five years before 1962, and this was one of the quinquennial faculties granted every five years, so there's no reason to think that 1962 is to be preferred to 1957.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #62 on: December 28, 2019, 10:45:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 28, 2019, 09:36:18 PM
    1957 is five years before 1962, and this was one of the quinquennial faculties granted every five years, so there's no reason to think that 1962 is to be preferred to 1957.
    Read the text in the photos. The indult was granted in 1962 not 1957. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #63 on: December 29, 2019, 09:25:10 AM »
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    • Hmmm....QvD.  Thanks for going to actual sources.  It does appear to be a 1962 (post Pius XII) dispensation.  Even if it weren't (and was dispensed by Pius XII), it is interesting to see that it was for a five year period anyway.  There probably would be question whether this could be considered still in force because of that.  

    I think it would be interesting to get a traditional priest to review what you found just in case there is something we are missing.  It still seems strange to me why traditional priests would push a turkey indult if there wasn't actually one.  Priests I have come in contact with are exceptionally meticulous, so I still find it hard to believe that they got this one wrong. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #64 on: December 29, 2019, 09:48:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 27, 2019, 05:59:05 PM
    1 photo of 5
    The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:

    We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.

    That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #65 on: December 29, 2019, 10:22:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 29, 2019, 09:48:36 AM
    The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:

    We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.

    That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
    Is it possible to repeat dispensations?  In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again?  Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #66 on: December 29, 2019, 11:04:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 29, 2019, 10:22:31 AM
    Is it possible to repeat dispensations?  In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again?  Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
    Yes.  That was ElAsuente’s point above.  And I would not have questioned the fact of it, until QVD suggested that the online citation might have been doctored.  But now that I notice QVD’s source only covers 1958-1962 (unless there is some additional reason to question the legitimacy of the online source), EA is certainly correct.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #67 on: December 29, 2019, 01:16:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 29, 2019, 09:48:36 AM
    The pic shows that this book covers the years 1958-1962, so it does not seem to be an appropriate source:

    We need the book covering 1957 (which is what the online source provides), in order to see if there is a discrepancy.

    That a turkey indult appears in 1962 does not disprove its prior existence in 1957.
    Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.

    Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #68 on: December 29, 2019, 01:19:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 29, 2019, 10:22:31 AM
    Is it possible to repeat dispensations?  In other words, could Pius XII have dispensed during his pontificate AND the next pope include it again?  Maybe that's standard operating procedure?
    Vermont, please see my post to Sean.
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    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #69 on: December 29, 2019, 04:41:41 PM »
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    • It is important to note that no blanket dispensation was given. Rather, local ordinaries were given the faculty to dispense the required abstinence, so it was up to each individual bishop for his own diocese. He could dispense but did not have to. 

    This faculty was one of many quinquennial faculties granted to bishops by the Holy See. As the name suggests, such faculties has to be given every five years. https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777

    The power to dispense with abstinence in the newest code of canon law resides with the bishop or the parish priest even. 
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #70 on: December 29, 2019, 04:49:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 29, 2019, 04:41:41 PM
    It is important to note that no blanket dispensation was given. Rather, local ordinaries were given the faculty to dispense the required abstinence, so it was up to each individual bishop for his own diocese. He could dispense but did not have to.

    This faculty was one of many quinquennial faculties granted to bishops by the Holy See. As the name suggests, such faculties has to be given every five years. https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/religion-past-and-present/quinquennial-faculties-SIM_024777

    The power to dispense with abstinence in the newest code of canon law resides with the bishop or the parish priest even.
    What I’m looking for is proof that it was given under pope Pius XII. I have never found any. The earliest date is 1962, 4 years after Pope Pius XII died.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #71 on: December 29, 2019, 05:02:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 29, 2019, 01:16:07 PM
    Sean, the online reference says it was taken from Volume 5, which is the volume I just purchased. I’ve looked in Volume 4, which covers 1953-1957, and it has nothing about the supposed “turkey indult”.

    Frankly, for R&R adherents, such as yourself, this really is a non-issue since the Vatican II magisterium has quasi-abrogated the Friday abstinence, so I suppose their conscience is clear. It does however pose a problem for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position since it seems to be enacted four years after the death of Pope Pius XII. Also, even if the indult was authorized under Pius XII, one would have to appeal to epikeia in order to partake in it.
    Thanks.  Looks like I will have to inform my husband of this for next year.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #72 on: December 29, 2019, 05:14:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 29, 2019, 05:02:25 PM
    Thanks.  Looks like I will have to inform my husband of this for next year.
    Sorry V, don’t tell him I did it. 😀
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    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #73 on: December 29, 2019, 05:26:00 PM »
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    • Never ate meat the Friday after Thanksgiving my whole life.

    Just found out about this indult a few years ago.

    Still don't eat meat the Friday after Thanksgiving.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #74 on: December 29, 2019, 05:35:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: King Wenceslas on December 29, 2019, 05:26:00 PM
    Never ate meat the Friday after Thanksgiving my whole life.

    Just found out about this indult a few years ago.

    Still don't eat meat the Friday after Thanksgiving.
    Same here. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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