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Author Topic: The American Turkey Indult  (Read 47819 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: The American Turkey Indult
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 04:55:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on November 21, 2019, 08:23:32 PM
    The first Thanksgiving in USA was Catholic (and Te Deum)

    Nadir is right. Friday we should go meat less as a gift to God.  (Instead of Friday, have Thanksgiving on Saturday to celebrate with family)

    I never shop on Friday after Thanksgiving either.  Thanksgiving should be with family and friends.  Stores should be closed.  

    Making these little sacrifices will bring us all closer to God.  I know I have do this.
    And if you would like to go meat-less on that Friday, by all means.  No one is telling you you "should" follow the dispensation.  However, it is not wrong/sinful for other Catholics who do eat meat because of the dispensation and their individual circuмstances.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 05:51:50 PM »
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    • Specific fasting days are positive law.  The Pope decided to give a dispensation for this particular one to accomodate cultural customs.  I don't understand why this is a discussion, or what is wrong with this.

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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #17 on: November 23, 2019, 08:28:54 AM »
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    • Dost thou suggest we dishonor the sacrificial turkey by letting his meat to go to waste?




    The Puritans had good intentions...

    They fed the poor, invincibly ignorant Indians.

    And they all had Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD), so they're probably in Heaven... don't you think :confused:

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline RevolveBooks

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #18 on: November 23, 2019, 09:41:48 AM »
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    • Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.  

    Quote
    Edward Winslow on the first Thanksgiving feast:

    “Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits of our labor. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which we brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.”
    I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do.  I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family.  And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it.  Some years we go on vacation.  It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas).  I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day.  And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not.  Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day.  That's ridiculous to argue against it.  People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #19 on: November 23, 2019, 03:27:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: RevolveBooks on November 23, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
    Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.  
    I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do.  I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family.  And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it.  Some years we go on vacation.  It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas).  I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day.  And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not.  Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day.  That's ridiculous to argue against it.  People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
    I work in retail currently so I'll have to work thanksgiving night.  

    I don't think its sacrilege to work per se, its not a Holy Day, but I do think it says something about American society that we can't even set apart a whole day to give thanks, like we can't even wait till the *next* day to go on a shopping spree
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #20 on: November 23, 2019, 04:49:52 PM »
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    • I was planning on smoking a turkey for Thanksgiving, as I've done the past several years.  But this thread, and a comment from a Catholic friend of mine who said cooking a turkey is "too Protestant," got me thinking that maybe I should try this, Smoked Beef Clod!



    Either way, like in years past, I'll more than likely abstain from meat the following Friday.  Whether it be turkey or beef, it'll be fine in the fridge one additional day.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #21 on: November 23, 2019, 07:09:47 PM »
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    • Looks delicious!
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #22 on: November 23, 2019, 07:20:14 PM »
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    • The folks at Tradition In Action have a bias against the Puritan feast day considering the history when, there was an antiCatholic movement to ban Christmas and make Thanksgiving the main national holiday.  


    The humble turkey was made their symbol, so on Thanksgiving, The Catholic meal is anything but Turkey.


    In fact, seafood would be more historically representative of the docuмented initial Spanish Catholic feasts of thanksgiving in our country.


    TIA calls the non turkey feast, “The Catholic Battle-plate”.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #23 on: November 24, 2019, 01:27:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 21, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
    Nobody's stopping you from doing penance, but the issue is whether or not you're going to impute sin to those who decide to eat meat that day ... just like on your modesty thread.  At another point, you claimed that dispensations and relaxations of law like this are invalid because they're against the common good.  In that case, you really are required under pain of sin to fast on Wednesdays also, because that was the mandatory practice in the early Church.  For that matter, you need to be keeping the fast all of Advent just like in Lent, since that too used to be the Church's discipline, and so the relaxation of that was clearly invalid.  You should start a website to denounce all the lax Catholics who do not fast on all the weekdays of Advent like they used to in the good old days.

    :facepalm:
    Re: fasting on Wednesdays
    You may find it interesting that in Irish, Friday is Dé hAoine(day of the fast) and Wednesday is Dé Céadaoin(the day of the first fast).
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #24 on: November 24, 2019, 02:06:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: RevolveBooks on November 23, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
    Seems questionable that the Puritan Thanksgiving including turkey.  
    I don't celebrate Thanksgiving the way others do.  I do take advantage of the 4 day weekend to do something fun with my immediate family.  And I like the "American Thanksgiving" meal so some years we go to a restaurant to enjoy it.  Some years we go on vacation.  It's a nice way to mark the beginning of our Catholic holiday season (Advent, Immaculate Conception, Christmas).  I don't get together with my Protestant/Americanist family to celebrate Turkey Day.  And I most certainly eat any meat I want on Black Friday, leftovers or not.  Furthermore, I don't think it's sacrilege for anyone to work on that day.  That's ridiculous to argue against it.  People have a right to earn a living without judgment.
    In our home, we do indeed have the turkey --- it's inexpensive, tasty, nutritious protein and lends itself to all kinds of leftovers (they basically give turkeys away at some groceries as a loss leader, to get you in the store, that's how I got a whole bird this year) --- but we also reflect on the Catholic origins of European settlement in the New World (Santa Fe, San Miguel de Gualdape, St Augustine), the conversion of the natives (including the story of Venerable Mary of Agreda and the Jumano people), and the fact that there was a Catholic presence in North America many years before the arrival of the Puritan cult.
    in other words, we let the descendants of the Puritan fanatics give us free food, and then we wrap the whole thing up in full-bore traditional Catholicism.  Makes the turkey taste much better.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #25 on: November 24, 2019, 02:31:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 23, 2019, 08:28:54 AM


    Dost thou suggest we dishonor the sacrificial turkey by letting his meat to go to waste?




    The Puritans had good intentions...

    They fed the poor, invincibly ignorant Indians.

    And they all had Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD), so they're probably in Heaven... don't you think :confused:

    I think it was more the case that the Indians helped out the Puritans, who weren't that bright when it came to fending for themselves in the new world.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #26 on: November 24, 2019, 02:35:55 PM »
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    • I sometimes eat turkey, use the American indult, if it is a matter of charity, ie., My elderly mother makes me a turkey sandwich.  If not, I refrain from meat as usual.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #27 on: November 24, 2019, 03:12:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 24, 2019, 02:31:49 PM
    I think it was more the case that the Indians helped out the Puritans, who weren't that bright when it came to fending for themselves in the new world.


    I think your right Meg... and not one of them got to Heaven via Implicit Baptism of Desire (IBOD).
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #28 on: November 24, 2019, 04:13:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Susanna on November 21, 2019, 08:00:35 AM
    Just one week away from Thanksgiving. Some traditionalists have, in the past, questioned the existence of this so called ‘Turkey Indult’, but it does actually exist. Here is it:


    U.S. Apostolic Delegate: Faculties, 1957.

    To delegate local Ordinaries to dispense from abstinence on Friday after Thanksgiving Day. See c. 1252.

    Pope Pius XII granted Americans a dispensation from their Friday abstinence so they could enjoy the turkey leftovers on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
    I’m not so convinced about this. Can you please direct me to an actual book that has this reference? I have never been able to locate it. Also, who’s to say which Ordinaries actually allowed the dispensation. Another issue is that one would certainly have to appeal to epikeia for it to be even considered lawful. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The American Turkey Indult
    « Reply #29 on: December 10, 2019, 08:13:27 AM »
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    • Bump....anyone have a real reference for this? I have yet to see one.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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