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Author Topic: The Ablutions  (Read 1636 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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The Ablutions
« on: October 25, 2016, 02:12:30 PM »
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  • I keep forgetting to ask, but for what seems like for about the last 7 or 8 months at Low Mass, the priest at my SSPX chapel, at the ablutions after Communion uses only water, no wine.

    For whatever reason he has stopped using wine to purify his fingers. I saw a few times that the altar boy brought both the wine and water, but Father only used the water, he specifically shook off using the wine.

    Anyone know what's up with that?





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Motorede

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2016, 02:38:56 PM »
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  •   Maybe a second Mass within three hours or, hopefully not, an inchoate problem with alcoholism? On All Souls' Day when the priest is allowed to offer three Masses he is required to abstain from wine at the second ablution if there is a second and third Mass immediately following the first

       I served Mass for a priest many years ago who, b/c of past alcoholism, would not take wine at this part of the Mass and also used only the smallest amount possible for a valid consecration.

      Can't think of any other reasons than these two to answer your question.


    Offline Incredulous

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2016, 03:51:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I keep forgetting to ask, but for what seems like for about the last 7 or 8 months at Low Mass, the priest at my SSPX chapel, at the ablutions after Communion uses only water, no wine.

    For whatever reason he has stopped using wine to purify his fingers. I saw a few times that the altar boy brought both the wine and water, but Father only used the water, he specifically shook off using the wine.

    Anyone know what's up with that?


    Possibilities:



    1. Altar server is notorious for loading-up the Priest's chalice with too much wine.
    2. The Priest is not French.
    3. The wine tastes bad.
    4. The Priest is Irish.
    5. The Priest has to drive home a long distance.

    Question:

    Is not partaking of wine during Ablutions within the acceptable TLM rubrics?


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline TKGS

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2016, 05:04:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous
    Question:

    Is not partaking of wine during Ablutions within the acceptable TLM rubrics?


    It depends.  For priests who adhere to the fasting laws established by Pope Pius XII, if the priest is going to say another Mass within three hours, he must not take wine in the ablutions.  

    If he is a Novus Ordo priest or SSPX priest, I'm not sure why he would not take wine with the ablution since the rubrics would normally require it and they claim the fasting laws of Montini are absolutely valid so they need only fast one hour (i.e., about the time it takes to say one Mass).

    Offline moneil

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2016, 11:44:27 PM »
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  • I was an altar server pre VII (born in 1951) and one always brought the cruets of wine and water to the altar at the ablutions and the priest would motion toward the water if only that was to be used, otherwise both were used, and this seemed to be a uniform practice among priests as I recall.

    The reason, as I recall, was as others here have said:  if he is saying another Mass shortly (a second Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day, or a funeral Mass after the regular daily Mass), wine was not taken at the ablutions.


    Offline Stubborn

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #5 on: October 26, 2016, 05:20:20 AM »
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  • Well, I doubt he's an alcoholic, and it seems like this is something he just started doing for no reason since he and all the priests have always celebrates both 7:30 and 10:00 Masses.

    When I served as a kid, every priest I ever served for always used both water and wine. I guess I was wondering if this is only at my chapel or if it's going on at all SSPX chapels.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TKGS

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 05:48:02 AM »
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  • This is interesting.  It does seem to be for no reason though I'm sure he has a reason; it's just not known.  He probably doesn't realize that this is even noticed by the faithful.  Priests should, however, be aware that their every move on the altar really is noticed by people.  Most people don't get too bent out of shape about things--after all, with all the Masses a priest says, the people realize that things happen and they aren't concerned.  But when a priest starts doing something new, and it becomes consistent, it will be noticed.

    I know that wine is not used in the ablutions in the Novus Ordo (whether the rubrics call for it I don't know, but I know that I've never seen it used).  I remember that I specifically  noticed the use of wine at the ablutions when I first started to attend the traditional Mass because it was another significant difference.  I'm sure that this isn't a factor, just that it is an interesting fact in connection with the ablutions.

    Offline ark of covenant

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 06:33:29 AM »
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  • Priests can also be dispensed from the wine in the 2nd ablutions due to genuine medical conditions e.g. diabetes, gout etc.


    Offline moneil

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    The Ablutions
    « Reply #8 on: October 26, 2016, 08:09:06 PM »
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  • It occurred to me that I have a book that might explain this:  “Matters Liturgical”, a translation of the “Collectio Reum Liturgicarum” by Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R, first published in 1889.;  translated by Rev. Thomas Mullaney, C.SS.R.; re-arranged and enlarged by Rev. William Barry, C.SS.R., S.S.L.  My eight edition of the English edition was published in 1955.

    From the Third Part, Sacred Rites: The Mass, The Parts of the Mass, 240 The Ablutions:

    c) “If a priest celebrates two or three Masses on the same day but not in immediate succession, he shall take the wine of the first ablution and the wine and water of the second ablution at the last Mass only.  At the preceding Mass or Masses he can take the two ablutions in the usual way and saying the usual prayers, except that only water may be used for each ablution (PIUS XII: CONST. OF JAN. 6, 1953 AD IV; HOLY OFFICE: INSTR. OF JAN. 6 1953 AD 7;…)”.

    There were simplified rubrics introduced in 1960, which were incorporated in the 1962 Roman Missal.  Perhaps the above instruction was modified by these, but I really don’t know.  The 1960 rubrics were in affect when I began serving but we were trained by older priests who often retained their old habits.