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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)  (Read 8455 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
« on: November 23, 2024, 08:33:34 AM »
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  • November 23rd, 2024EC No. CMVI (906)
    CONTROLLED CHAOS
    God then withdrew, a punishment quite just,
    Yet still men are intent on going bust!
    If there is one word with which to describe the state of the Catholic Church today, surely that word is “chaos.” The normal structure of the Church is that of a pyramid, with God’s own Authority descending through Pope, cardinals, bishops and priests, all raised up by God to look after His sheep, or laity, at ground level. This hierarchy consists of fallible men, from top to bottom, so that at all levels mistakes can be made. However, if in normal circuмstances a Superior in the hierarchy misbehaves, he usually has a Superior of his own to whom I can appeal against his misbehaviour, because any given Superior in the Church will normally make decisions in accordance with Canon Law, and, with a minimum of good will, in accordance with truth and justice. And so, in normal circuмstances, from lower down I can appeal all the way up to Rome.
    However, what happens when the fallible human being at the top of this pyramid loses his sense of truth and justice, and even his good will? There can only be chaos in the Church from top to bottom, because the Catholic Church was designed by God to be a monarchy in which there is His own divine Authority to protect the great truths of salvation, so that He can populate His Heaven with souls to share His bliss. That Authority is recognised and exercised at all levels of the hierarchy, but supremely by the Pope, who has no human Superior above him, but only God. It follows that if the Pope, or the man in white who is universally accepted as Pope, seems to lose all sense of Truth for which alone he receives his awesome Authority over the Church, dwarfing all merely human authorities, then the Church is in chaos, from top to bottom.
    In this respect, the Catholic Church resembles a string doll consisting of multiple pieces of coloured wood, upheld on strings, upheld in turn by the puppeteer above. If for one moment the puppeteer lets go of the strings, the entire doll collapses into a jumbled heap of meaningless pieces of wood. If for one moment Almighty God lets go of His Pope and Cardinals in Rome, His bishops and priests and laity turn worldwide into a jumbled heap of Catholics, disunited and divided among themselves, many of them striving to recreate in their own little corner a semblance of that divine Authority which can come from God alone. What less can they do? Wise Catholics recognise their basic impotency, unless and until God restores a Catholic Pope. Meanwhile Catholics must do what they can to rebuild Catholic corners, and help all other Catholics to do the same, just so long as they have the Catholic Faith (and here let nobody pretend to be infallible!).
    And the Pope, or seeming Pope? The correct perspective on the history of mankind is that, because of original sin, each of its Seven Ages is launched by a key figure, followed by a period of decadence until the next key figure is appointed by God to raise mankind up again, until the Antichrist will bring to an end the Seventh Age of the World which was introduced by God Himself with His Incarnation, some 2000 years ago.
    This Seventh Age has been by far the longest, because God’s own Incarnation has been the turning-point of human history, the climax of all Seven Ages, because the Incarnation has continued ever since through the Catholic Church, Jesus continuing to live and save souls for eternity among all races and nations.
    But God, to honour man, chose to entrust His Church not to angels but to fallible men, without turning them into robots by taking away their free-will. This means that He laid Himself open to the possibility that the human ministers of His Church would eventually so misuse their God-given free-will as to destroy His Church. This is what virtually happened at Vatican II (1962–1965). In 1968, God gave mankind a second chance, when He guided Pope Paul VI to condemn artificial means of birth control in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae. But all mankind, not just the Catholics, rose up in revolt, to condemn the old man dressed in white, living in Rome, supposed to know nothing about marriage.
    Almighty God then said, so to speak, “Alright. Have it your own way. You do not want My Church. Have your own, and see how you like it. Good-bye for now. Get back in touch as soon as you want My Church back. Meanwhile, I will keep it going, in distress. I will be waiting to hear from you. I love you still.
    Kyrie eleison.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #1 on: November 23, 2024, 09:32:56 AM »
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  • But God, to honour man, chose to entrust His Church not to angels but to fallible men, without turning them into robots by taking away their free-will. This means that He laid Himself open to the possibility that the human ministers of His Church would eventually so misuse their God-given free-will as to destroy His Church. This is what virtually happened at Vatican II (1962–1965). In 1968, God gave mankind a second chance, when He guided Pope Paul VI to condemn artificial means of birth control in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae. But all mankind, not just the Catholics, rose up in revolt, to condemn the old man dressed in white, living in Rome, supposed to know nothing about marriage.
    Almighty God then said, so to speak, “Alright. Have it your own way. You do not want My Church. Have your own, and see how you like it. Good-bye for now. Get back in touch as soon as you want My Church back. Meanwhile, I will keep it going, in distress. I will be waiting to hear from you. I love you still.
    Kyrie eleison.

    Good EC. The above seems especially appropriate, IMO, in that it reminds us that fallible men are entrusted by God to be in charge of His Church, and that not only Catholics, but all mankind rose up in revolt to condemn Paul VI, after God guided the Pope to condemn artificial means of birth control.

    So God has withdrawn some (or most?) of His care of His Church, and is letting men have their own way, since they no longer want His Church. Good reminder that the Crisis is a punishment for sin, and that God still loves us.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #2 on: November 23, 2024, 04:36:23 PM »
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  • In 1968, God gave mankind a second chance, when He guided Pope Paul VI to condemn artificial means of birth control in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae.

    Didn't Paul VI in that same encyclical teach a non-Catholic explanation of the ends of marriage whereby making the procreative and unitive ends equal rather than the latter being subordinate to the former?  And if so, how can we say that God gave mankind a second chance via this man's teachings?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #3 on: November 24, 2024, 12:49:38 AM »
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  • In 1968, God gave mankind a second chance, when He guided Pope Paul VI to condemn artificial means of birth control in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae.

    Didn't Paul VI in that same encyclical teach a non-Catholic explanation of the ends of marriage whereby making the procreative and unitive ends equal rather than the latter being subordinate to the former?  And if so, how can we say that God gave mankind a second chance via this man's teachings?
    The point that His Lordship is making, is that the Pope definitively and infallibly upheld the Church's teaching on this question of morals (condemning contraception), which was widely received even within the Church by the attitude: "Who is the Pope to tell me what to do?"... Catholics preferred to be left to their own desires, so God quietly withdrew to let them suffer the consequences.
    Romans 1:[24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #4 on: November 24, 2024, 06:10:27 AM »
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  • The point that His Lordship is making, is that the Pope definitively and infallibly upheld the Church's teaching on this question of morals (condemning contraception), which was widely received even within the Church by the attitude: "Who is the Pope to tell me what to do?"... Catholics preferred to be left to their own desires, so God quietly withdrew to let them suffer the consequences.
    Romans 1:[24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    I understand the point he was making.  I disagree with his point because the same man didn't uphold Church teaching with respect to the ends of marriage. He might have had a point if this encyclical was 100% Catholic, but it was not.  How clever was Montini in his wording so that he mixed in more error with true teaching.  If anything, it was another opportunity for Catholics to see that he wasn't who he claimed to be.

    Louie does a great job showing what Humanae Vitae was here:

    Humanae Vitae: The problem, not the solution -


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #5 on: November 24, 2024, 05:35:58 PM »
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  • I understand the point he was making.  I disagree with his point because the same man didn't uphold Church teaching with respect to the ends of marriage. He might have had a point if this encyclical was 100% Catholic, but it was not.  How clever was Montini in his wording so that he mixed in more error with true teaching.  If anything, it was another opportunity for Catholics to see that he wasn't who he claimed to be.

    Louie does a great job showing what Humanae Vitae was here:

    Humanae Vitae: The problem, not the solution -
    Bishop Williamson's point is entirely valid.
    It was the infallible Catholic content of this papal teaching that Catholics wanted nothing to do with.
    If they had accepted it, what a different world we would be in today.
    God would not have abandoned us to our own desires if we had submitted like good children of the Church to the Catholic teaching.
    Why would He continue to give us such blessings when we throw them back in his face?
    Please don't make this thread about your understanding of papal infallibility which is not that of Archbishop Lefebvre or the traditional SSPX.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #6 on: November 24, 2024, 06:48:32 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's point is entirely valid.
    It was the infallible Catholic content of this papal teaching that Catholics wanted nothing to do with.
    If they had accepted it, what a different world we would be in today.
    God would not have abandoned us to our own desires if we had submitted like good children of the Church to the Catholic teaching.
    Why would He continue to give us such blessings when we throw them back in his face?
    Please don't make this thread about your understanding of papal infallibility which is not that of Archbishop Lefebvre or the traditional SSPX.
    Nowhere did I  mention nor infer papal infallibility.  I think Bishop Willamson is completely off base to think God used the Modernist Montini to give Catholics the chance to be faithful. 

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #7 on: November 25, 2024, 04:12:58 AM »
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  • Nowhere did I  mention nor infer papal infallibility.  I think Bishop Willamson is completely off base to think God used the Modernist Montini to give Catholics the chance to be faithful.
    Apologies, 2V, for reading too much into your comments.
    However, God can and does use even sinful men in authority, even Modernists, to make clear to Catholics what they must do and believe.
    In Humanae Vitae, as Bishop Williamson points out, there was one very clear message given to the sheeple (those who follow the shepherd), and that was simply that the Catholic doctrine and morality regarding contraception had not and could not change. Sheeple are not academics, they don't analyse papal docuмents, what they understood from this teaching was that they could not follow the modern world and lifestyle. The sheeple rejected this grace from God, and so God gave them shepherds who would no longer guide them in truth since they did not want to follow. They would only become more culpable. It is a valid point.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Controlled Chaos (no. 906)
    « Reply #8 on: November 25, 2024, 05:46:33 AM »
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  • Apologies, 2V, for reading too much into your comments.
    However, God can and does use even sinful men in authority, even Modernists, to make clear to Catholics what they must do and believe.
    In Humanae Vitae, as Bishop Williamson points out, there was one very clear message given to the sheeple (those who follow the shepherd), and that was simply that the Catholic doctrine and morality regarding contraception had not and could not change. Sheeple are not academics, they don't analyse papal docuмents, what they understood from this teaching was that they could not follow the modern world and lifestyle. The sheeple rejected this grace from God, and so God gave them shepherds who would no longer guide them in truth since they did not want to follow. They would only become more culpable. It is a valid point.
    I still disagree that God would use the same man who just gave the Faithful the colossal non-Catholic Vatican II religion.

    But it seems that certain Trads prefer to hold Humanae Vitae to be a Catholic docuмent worthy of nothing but praise.

    Perhaps if Montini actually taught Catholic teaching, the Faithful would listen. Again, this article brings up very good points in how he didn't do that:

    Humanae Vitae: The problem, not the solution -

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.