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Author Topic: The "Pope" question  (Read 1861 times)

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Offline Ferdinand

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The "Pope" question
« on: November 10, 2012, 09:29:16 AM »
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  • From Pacelli on Ignis Ardens:

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    I find it so fascinating among Catholics in our times that we cannot just sit down and study the crisis dispassionately. Every time the word "sedevacantism" get mentioned, it is like a cuss word was said in polite company.

    I was not always a sedevacantist. Like most who went to SSPX, I adopted their party line, but I could never reconcile how a Catholic could operate a chapel, and all that goes along with it, outside of the pope and bishops authority.

    When I would ask questions, I would always be told something to the effect of: This is an emergency and the Society is doing what its doing to keep the Faith.

    But, that trouble always remained with me: Is not the pope the head of the Church and the Supreme Teacher. I also had a problem with the idea that a pope could promulgate a mass that was evil, and that the pope himself could be scandalizing the world by saying this evil mass.

    I remember the Society priest I went to at the time worked with the SSPX but was not an SSPX priest himself. This priest was a good friend of mine, I admired him and thought of him like a saint, and he was a priest trained in a seminary of the Church in the old days.

    Anyway, a controversy arose because the priest would not condemn the Novus Ordo, and used the analogy that at dinner, you could eat steak or a hot dog, with the meaning that the true Mass was better, and the Novus Ordo was lesser, but both feed you.

    The District Superior intervened after laypeople complained about his stand. This priest defended his position by stating, how can we criticize the mass of the pope? In the end, and I am not sure how it happened, but he backed down, and told Catholics to no longer go to the Novus Ordo.

    This controversy left me very unsettled on the pope question. From that point forward, I dedicated myself to getting to the bottom of this problem, and that has been a long time, almost 20 years or so now of reading and studying this question.

    Let me first say, I have the greatest respect for Archbishop Lefebvre, and I understand that he was fighting for the faith at a time of mass confusion, the loss of faith everywhere, his brother bishops mostly all falling away in their faith, the Novus Ordo, etc. I do respect him, and I understand why he believed the "pope" problem would have to be dealt with later, as he was in the middle of battle, one cannot do research when you are under endless attack.

    But, as time went on, and the crisis did not end, he did start posing the question very seriously that these men may not be popes, and that we may become sedevacantists. He seemed to be close to making a judgment on this, but hesitant, right up to the end of his life.

    After the Archbishop died, (May he rest in peace), it was like the Society became frozen in time on this question. There would be no more talk about sedevacantism at all, as though this was the position of the Archbishop. His words were that we may become sedevacantist based upon the evidence, not that we will never be sedevacantist.

    The point I am making is this: The pope question is the most important issue for Catholics in our time. The Archbishop knew this and he stated this in 1986. The pope question cannot be ignored.

    The reason it cannot be ignored is Catholics must both (1) keep the Faith, and (2) remain in communion with and subject to the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in union with hm.

    Catholics cannot do one, they must do both, and this is what has led to the continual defection of so many priests and laity over the years. This disorder has in reality led to three positions on the crisis.

    1. Focus on keeping the Faith, but ignore the problem of remaining in communion with the pope and the bishops under him. (And by communion, I do not mean treating him as a figurehead).

    2. Focus on remaining in communion with the "pope" and his bishops and try to keep the faith while remaining under him. Many of tried this and it always leads to compromise and failure. This very good article from truetrad demonstrates this very well: http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/other-or...-deal-with-rome

    3. Focus on keeping the faith and understanding that Catholics cannot remain in communion with heretics. This position understands that one cannot ignore the pope and that popes cannot do the things that these men have done. This is sedevacantism.

    Many of this board have criticized Bp. Fellay fiercely, but he was only being consistent. By this, I am not for any deal, just the opposite. My hope is that the Bishop will finally deal with the pope question once and for all. Bp. Fellay obviously knows that he cannot ignore the pope, that is why he has been dealing with the man he calls "pope."

    Now, as he got close to the abyss, and the Society was almost lost, the time has come to deal with an issue that has been suppressed for over 20 years. Obviously, Bishop Fellay understands now that he must resolve the conflict of how Catholics keep the Faith and at the same time remain outside of communion with the pope and his bishops. (And I know some on here will maintain that saying you are in communion with the pope and hanging his picture is enough, while ignoring his teaching, his laws, his bishops under him and ignoring him as the rule of Faith).

    If this was years ago, I would never have posted this on this forum, as I did not believe many Catholics were ready to deal with this problem. Now, times have changed in the Church and the world, and the momentum is building for Catholics to finally end this crisis once and for all.

    The only way we can end this is to settle this pope question. I hope and pray that the only organization on earth that has the resources and ability to end this crisis, the SSPX, will finally research this matter in a scholarly way, and act upon it. The sedevacantist groups currently out there do not have the resources or the cooperation to do anything about this. This in my opinion has always been the plan for the SSPX, and unfortunately, this "mission" has been frozen for over 20 years. It is time to thaw the ice.

    The hour is late now, the crisis in the Church has reached a late stage, the governments of the world are turning more against us, and we need to resolve this issue, which will eventually lead to a lawful pope being elected.

    Only with a true pope can the Church shine again as She must, Catholics will be united again, and we will be a force again to convert the world to Christ.


    The question had to be suppressed for the sake of Menzingen's reunion plan.


    Offline songbird

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 10:32:43 AM »
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  • He is not pope, he is outward heretic.  My Focus is on the Powers of the Precious Blood in the sacraments where they can be found, and preparation for Chapter 12 of Daniel.


    Offline s2srea

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 11:04:38 AM »
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  • Well, that post was like the other million posts from sedevecantists. What's the point? He's a sede? Cool; most here are not, nor is Bishop Williamson.

    Offline Nishant

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »
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  • Well, the SSPX has not ignored the question, and Archbishop Lefebvre studied the question as much as anyone and pointed out observations against it that have never been answered.

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    ... those who affirm that there is no Pope over-simplify the problem. The reality is more complex. If one begins to study the question of whether or not a Pope can be heretical, one quickly discovers that the problem is not as simple as one might have thought.

    ...

    Does not the exclusion of the cardinals of over eighty years of ages, and the secret meetings which preceded and prepared the last two Conclaves, render them invalid? Invalid: no, that is saying too much. Doubtful at the time: perhaps. But in any case, the subsequent unanimous acceptance of the election by the Cardinals and the Roman clergy suffices to validate it. That is the teaching of the theologians.

    The visibility of the Church is too necessary to its existence for it to be possible that God would allow that visibility to disappear for decades. The reasoning of those who deny that we have a Pope puts the Church in an inextricable situation. Who will tell us who the future Pope is to be? How, as there are no Cardinals, is he to be chosen?


    And now with the alleged sede vacante extending over 50 years a new problem, many times greater, crops up for the theory - the fact that in that case there would be no visible traditional Bishop in all the world with ordinary jurisdiction, which is inadmissible.

    Quote from: SSPX website
    But is indefectibility preserved if there is no pope since 1962 or if there is no one with ordinary jurisdiction whom the sedevacantists can point out as such?


    The very best of sedevacantist writers, some of whom I respect very much though I don't agree with their opinion, agree at the least that this causes some issues and therefore affects the claim that this opinion can bind other Catholics. It is a speculative theory at best, and in all probability a false one.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Ambrose

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 02:27:49 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism is the only answer to the question.  If sedevacantism is not true and these herertics are popes, then answer the question, "Can Catholics ever trust the pope to be their teacher and lawgiver?"

    If the Pope cannot be trusted it will be the right and duty of Catholics from now until the end of the world to distrust popes, because if we cannot trust Benedict XVI, John Paul II, and Paul VI, then the principle will always be that popes are not protected by God and can lead Catholics to Hell.  

    Is that what you want to call the Catholic Church?
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ferdinand

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 03:07:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Sedevacantism is the only answer to the question.  If sedevacantism is not true and these herertics are popes, then answer the question, "Can Catholics ever trust the pope to be their teacher and lawgiver?"

    If the Pope cannot be trusted it will be the right and duty of Catholics from now until the end of the world to distrust popes, because if we cannot trust Benedict XVI, John Paul II, and Paul VI, then the principle will always be that popes are not protected by God and can lead Catholics to Hell.  

    Is that what you want to call the Catholic Church?


    Archbishop Lefebvre, in no uncertain terms, classified Cardinal Ratzinger, John Paul II and Paul VI as heretics... even worse as modernists!  (Modernism was labelled by Pope St. Pius X as "the synthesis of all heresies".)

    With Benedict XVI we have a first in the history of the Church.  A claimaint to the Papacy "ordained" Bishop in Bugnini's dubious rite.

    Joseph Ratzinger
    - 29 Jun 1951 Ordained Priest
    - 28 May 1977 "Ordained" Bishop (Bugnini Rite)

    A couple of questions.  

    1. Was he conditionally Consecrated in the traditional Rite?
    2. Can a man (setting aside for a moment that he is a manifest heretic) be Pope without being a Bishop?

    FYI.  Not claiming to have the answers, just a few questions.



    Offline songbird

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 08:52:52 PM »
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  • Question: Can a valid ordination take place if one is a manifest heretic?  Let us say that Ratzinger took on valid priesthood, but what about Bishop,and Pope.  He shows himself as manifest heretic, and can not be nominated for Bishop or pope for that matter.  This be the case, ordinations are invalid.  Church makes it clear that those nominated are Catholic. Makes common sense and reason that Holy Mother Church made that clear.

    Offline s2srea

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    The "Pope" question
    « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 10:04:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Sedevacantism is the only answer to the question.


    No, it is not.

    Bishop Williamson:

    http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/why-society-of-saint-pius-x-is-not.html
    http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/why-society-is-neither-liberal-nor.html

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     If sedevacantism is not true and these herertics are popes, then answer the question, "Can Catholics ever trust the pope to be their teacher and lawgiver?"


    Yes. That this case is true now (the pope is a heretic), doesn't make it the norm. You have more in line with Novus Ordites than you think. If the man who was the Bishop of Rome could not err, he would cease to be a man.

    Quote

    If the Pope cannot be trusted it will be the right and duty of Catholics from now until the end of the world to distrust popes, because if we cannot trust Benedict XVI, John Paul II, and Paul VI, then the principle will always be that popes are not protected by God and can lead Catholics to Hell.  

    Is that what you want to call the Catholic Church?


    You seem to fail to realize this may indeed be "now until the end of the world".