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Author Topic: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch  (Read 5752 times)

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Offline Paul FHC

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Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 10:12:13 PM »
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  • Nice job original poster.

    I'm not sure if the article has been translated into english, but the dominicans of avrille have written a tiny exposé addressing all of the main sedevacantist arguments. Under the section regarding "una cuм" they took the trouble to write the head latin professor of the Gregorian just to analyze the syntax of the te igitur.

    The professor(Reginald Foster, latin professor at the university level for 40 years and the pope's personal latinist for decades as well) responded saying that the notorious "una cuм" appeared to him as simply modifying the objects (placing Papa Nostro una cuм with the other intentions, Ecclesia tua sancta catholic) instead of the subject which would have a personal meaning(we pray for the Ecclesia tua sancta catholica and we are una cuм with Papa Nostro).


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #31 on: July 06, 2017, 05:24:55 AM »
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  • Yes, that means putting it down as law, not rewriting it as in the novus ordo.  Right!  They still mentioned the name of the current Pope, if there was a current Pope before it was codified.  My question was if anyone knows whose name was mentioned during the Great Western Schism, or for that matter whenever the pope dies and while waiting for the new successor of Peter.  During the interregnum.
    From Sancta Missa

    ...The Canon that we say is always the one finally restored by Pius V, that remains as it was in the days of Gregory I, and that goes back far behind his time till its origin is lost in the mists that hang over the first centuries when the Roman Christians met together to "do the things the Lord commanded at appointed times" (I Clem., xl)....

    It is observed throughout the Canon. The priest prays first for the Church, then for the pope and diocesan ordinary by name. Antistes, from antisto (proistemi), is one of the many older words for "bishop". At the pope's name a slight inclination is made. When the Roman See is vacant, the mention of the pope is left out. In Rome the bishop's name is left out; the pope is local bishop there. The bishop must be canonically appointed and confirmed, otherwise he is not mentioned. But he need not yet be consecrated. It is always the ordinary of the diocese, even in the case of regulars who are exempt. A diocesan bishop in saying Mass changes the form "et Antistite nostro N." into "et me indigno servo tuo". The pope naturally uses these words instead of "una cuм famulo tuo Papa nostro N.", and omits the clause about the bishop. The mention of the pope always occurs at this place. Otherwise in the Middle Ages there was a great variety in the names. A very old custom was to name the sovereign after the bishop ("et pro rege nostro N." or "Imperatore nostro N."). Pope Celestine I (422-32) refers to it in a letter to Theodosius II. Boniface I (418-22) writes to Emperor Honorius: "Behold in the very mysteries, among the prayers which the bishop offers for your Empire . . ." (Drews, Entstehungsgesch., 7). So also the "De Sacramentis" says: "Prayer is offered for the people, for the king, for the others" (IV, iv). Throughout the Middle Ages the sovereign was always named. Pius V removed the clause from the Missal. In the case of Catholic princes a privilege is given by which they are put in. In Austria the clause "et pro Imperatore nostro Francisco Josepho" is always added by the celebrant, and in Hungary it becomes of course "pro rege nostro". At one time the priest went on to pray for himself at this place (Bona, Rerum liturg., II, 11). Ebner quotes as the commonest form: "Mihi quoque indignissimo famulo tuo propitius esse digneris et ab omnibus me peccatorum offensionibus emundare" (Miss. Rom., 401). We have already noted this as being almost exactly a version of the Alexandrineform. The word "orthodoxi" that follows is very rare in the West. It is a link between our Canon and the Antiochene Anaphora.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #32 on: July 06, 2017, 09:05:10 AM »
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  • Thank you Stubborn this is what I was looking for but couldn't find it on the Internet.  

    It was explained to me a long time ago, maybe some 20 years or so, when I asked a priest about this, he simply said during an interregnum the mention of the Pope was left out as you said.  Which makes sense to me as it should be.  

    Sedevacantism, as I have tried to explain only, means just that, we believe in the Office, however, the Roman See is vacant at this time, we are STILL ONE WITH THE POPE.  We are not in schism and are doing exactly what the Church has done.  Actually, it is Vatican II who are in schism.  

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #33 on: July 06, 2017, 04:20:07 PM »
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  • Myrna, I see what you're saying yet I'm arguing against those sedes who would disagree with your view.  It is this group who are extremists and who anathematize anyone who doesn't view the world as they see it.  This is the problem, the scandal and the point of the thread. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #34 on: July 06, 2017, 04:23:34 PM »
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  • Thank you Stubborn this is what I was looking for but couldn't find it on the Internet.  

    It was explained to me a long time ago, maybe some 20 years or so, when I asked a priest about this, he simply said during an interregnum the mention of the Pope was left out as you said.  Which makes sense to me as it should be.  

    Sedevacantism, as I have tried to explain only, means just that, we believe in the Office, however, the Roman See is vacant at this time, we are STILL ONE WITH THE POPE.  We are not in schism and are doing exactly what the Church has done.  Actually, it is Vatican II who are in schism.  
    The thing is, the See is not vacant at this time.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #35 on: July 06, 2017, 05:50:54 PM »
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  • Myrna, I see what you're saying yet I'm arguing against those sedes who would disagree with your view.  It is this group who are extremists and who anathematize anyone who doesn't view the world as they see it.  This is the problem, the scandal and the point of the thread.
    Thank you, Pax and I have been thinking all these extremists are their own worst enemy.  Why do so many, especially men, want to be the person that has the answer with their particular theory.  They want to be the theologian with the loudest voice as to what Traditional Bishop we have to pay mind to because after all THIS particular Bishop thinks like "I do", so he has to be correct. At least Bishop Pivarunas when asked if we can attend an Una cuм Mass, said, (paraphrasing)<<< if you are not worried about losing your faith, it's your decision.>>>>  He also doesn't add ...<<<< but if you attend don't come back to CMRI and expect to receive the Sacraments>>>>.   
    The truth the way I see it, God does not expect any of us to be Canon lawyers or theologians, all these quotes sometimes make my head spin because they are either taken out of context or were spoken by good and holy people decades ago who couldn't imagine what we are going through...
    ...With the Roman See being vacant unless you want to admit Stubborn that it's okay that Freemasons, Modernists, and Protestants are allowed to have a voice in a Papal election.  Hey!  Why not after all the Truth only subsists in the Catholic Church. (Your pope's new teaching, not mine)  
    I pray during Te Igitur Just as Christ asked the Father to guide and protect the Church that He instituted, the priest prays for the Catholic Church as during the time of interregnum.
    God knows exactly how and when He will end this crisis, why not just relax and allow Him to grant this peace and protection, to unite and guide her the whole world over. 
    Keep the Faith, stop tearing down this Bishop or that Bishop just because his theory doesn't fit the agenda.  Trust in God!  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #36 on: July 07, 2017, 04:22:57 AM »
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  • ...With the Roman See being vacant unless you want to admit Stubborn that it's okay that Freemasons, Modernists, and Protestants are allowed to have a voice in a Papal election.  Hey!  Why not after all the Truth only subsists in the Catholic Church. (Your pope's new teaching, not mine)  
    I pray during Te Igitur Just as Christ asked the Father to guide and protect the Church that He instituted, the priest prays for the Catholic Church as during the time of interregnum.
    God knows exactly how and when He will end this crisis, why not just relax and allow Him to grant this peace and protection, to unite and guide her the whole world over.
    Keep the Faith, stop tearing down this Bishop or that Bishop just because his theory doesn't fit the agenda.  Trust in God!  
    Why would you even ask me to admit such a horrendous thing as that? It's not ok that Freemasons, Modernists, and Protestants are allowed to have a voice in a Papal election, why not just relax, knowing that they will all be judged by God, the same as the rest of us - one at a time, but honestly, you shouldn't go around saying the Roman See is vacant when it obviously isn't.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #37 on: July 07, 2017, 08:30:42 AM »
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  • Stubborn you see what you want to see, a Catholic sitting in the Chair, I don't!  Therefore if there isn't a Catholic sitting there it is vacant in the eyes of God.  In that sense it is vacant!

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #38 on: July 07, 2017, 08:59:39 AM »
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  • The surest course to take Myrna, is to be the pope's good servant, but God's first. In this day and age, there is no other choice for Catholics.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #39 on: July 07, 2017, 10:49:39 AM »
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  • Just remember Stubborn that God Himself called St.Peter Satan, and for what reason, just because Peter merely suggested to Jesus that "Far be it from thee, O Lord; this will never happen to thee."  Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal to me; for thou dost not mind the things of God, but those of men."  Matthew 16; 21-23

    You are a good servant, Stubborn, to Satan, because Francis does not mind the things of God but those of men.  

    Peter's intention was mistaken, but not evil as is Francis and his ilk.  

    So let this be a warning from the Bible to put God first.

    Actions, not words.   
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #40 on: July 07, 2017, 01:04:57 PM »
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  • Just remember Stubborn that God Himself called St.Peter Satan, and for what reason, just because Peter merely suggested to Jesus that "Far be it from thee, O Lord; this will never happen to thee."  Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal to me; for thou dost not mind the things of God, but those of men."  Matthew 16; 21-23
    You have your interpretation all mixed up - you should read only the Haydock Bible.


    Quote
    You are a good servant, Stubborn, to Satan, because Francis does not mind the things of God but those of men.
    I am not a servant to Satan - and where do you come off saying something as evil as that? Do you believe I am the devil after +50 years of persevering in the true faith? Do you believe that because I paraphrased St. Thomas More's final words when I said; "The surest course to take Myrna, is to be the pope's good servant, but God's first", and that "for Catholics in this day and age trying to remain faithful to the Catholic faith, there is no other choice" that I serve Satan?

    FYI, the above is an elementary Catholic principle, a Catholic principle that Catholic children are taught, understand AND accept before they're even 8 years old - it is only basic, wholly Catholic, and only satanic to some non-Catholics.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #41 on: July 07, 2017, 01:13:29 PM »
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  • St. Thomas More said those words when we had a Catholic Pope, do you not see the difference?

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #42 on: July 07, 2017, 02:41:56 PM »
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  • St. Thomas More said those words when we had a Catholic Pope, do you not see the difference?
    Were you never taught the principle?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #43 on: July 07, 2017, 04:20:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    You are a good servant, Stubborn, to Satan, because Francis does not mind the things of God but those of men.  
    Let's stay on topic---  

    Myrna, Are you suggesting that to name Francis in the Te Igitur prayer is to worship Satan?  Or are you suggesting that it's wrong?  I say it's not wrong to name Francis because his papacy's status is doubtful.  If it was absolutely certain that he wasn't the pope, then it would be a sin, but it's not certain, so, by default, a priest should pray for him.  

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Taking apart the Sede "Una cuм" argument like a cheap watch
    « Reply #44 on: July 07, 2017, 05:05:58 PM »
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  • Pax... my point was comparing ... Matthew 16; 21 - 23 ,  consider THE PRINCIPLE of the story.  --->    Peter merely suggested to Jesus that "Far be it from thee, O Lord; this will never happen to thee."  Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal to me; for thou dost not mind the things of God, but those of men."  Matthew 16; 21-23

    I believe in praying for the entire world, in fact, I do every morning, the reason is:  We are called to love our neighbor as ourselves, and Jesus suffered and died for all, but not all are saved, as Francis alludes too.  Praying for others salvation is the best way to love our neighbor.  

    I apologize to Stubborn that he took it personal about the word "Satan" I can see how that happened!  I was applying the PRINCIPLE of the verse again in Matthew 16; 21 - 23 and how Jesus called Peter the First Pope Satan because he dost not mind the things of God, but those of men.  

    It is not wrong to pray for Francis but wrong to name him as a True Pope since he minds the things of man, not God (getting back on topic, UNA cuм).   

    Having said that, I have attended Una cuм Masses, and will no doubt do it again, the sins of the priest are not mine.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/