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Author Topic: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism  (Read 13062 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 07:41:22 PM »
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    • First they were in schism in the late 80s, then they weren't in the 2000s, now they are again.  I think Burke was more than blackmailed.  His life was threatened...either quit criticizing the pope or else.  It's not like Burke is some bastion of tradition, but he's moreso than many in rome (but that's not saying much).  As many have already said - I agree - "who cares".
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #16 on: October 01, 2017, 07:45:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 01, 2017, 07:41:22 PM
    ...

    "who cares".
    ... and, if you do, then why?
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #17 on: October 01, 2017, 07:59:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 01, 2017, 07:41:22 PM
    First they were in schism in the late 80s, then they weren't in the 2000s, now they are again.  I think Burke was more than blackmailed.  His life was threatened...either quit criticizing the pope or else.  It's not like Burke is some bastion of tradition, but he's moreso than many in rome (but that's not saying much).  As many have already said - I agree - "who cares".
    Yes, you are correct.
    You can lead a horse (my friends in the NO) to water, but you cannot make them drink.
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    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #18 on: October 02, 2017, 07:55:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Recusant Sede on October 01, 2017, 04:03:43 PM
    The SSPX’s hero throws them under the bus!

    https://akacatholic.com/breaking-cardinal-burke-slams-fsspx/
    Awesome.
    Never forget what he did in MO.
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    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #19 on: October 02, 2017, 07:58:06 AM »
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    • Also, does this mean the war is back on?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #20 on: October 02, 2017, 08:16:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 01, 2017, 06:28:54 PM
    This is sad.
    Could it be that Cardinal Burke was blackmailed into making this statement?
    Isn't this characteristically not like him? Why the sudden change?
    What Burke is saying is correct, the SSPX is in schism from the Vatican II church that he belongs to. He is just stating the obvious, and what all the Vatican II bishops believe. The problem is that the SSPX recognizes that Vatican II church as the Catholic Church, as long as they recognize it as the Catholic Church, they are in schism.

    If the SSPX were to come out and say that they have serious doubts whether the Vatican II church is the Catholic Church, or that they can't with certainty of faith say the Vatican II church is Catholic,  then they would not be in schism. As long as they keep legitimizing the Vatican II church, they really are in schism.  They can't have it both ways.
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    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 08:27:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 02, 2017, 08:16:58 AM
    What Burke is saying is correct, the SSPX is in schism from the Vatican II church that he belongs to. He is just stating the obvious, and what all the Vatican II bishops believe. The problem is that the SSPX recognizes that Vatican II church as the Catholic Church, as long as they recognize it as the Catholic Church, they are in schism.

    If the SSPX were to come out and say that they have serious doubts whether the Vatican II church is the Catholic Church, or that they can't with certainty of faith say the Vatican II church is Catholic,  then they would not be in schism. As long as they keep legitimizing the Vatican II church, they really are in schism.  They can't have it both ways.
    It’s true that they may be “in schism from the Vatican II church", but the Vatican II church is in fact not the Catholic Church. What saves the SSPX people from schism is the fact that Bergoglio is not a true pope and that the NO is not the true Church. 
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #22 on: October 02, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 02, 2017, 08:16:58 AM
    What Burke is saying is correct, the SSPX is in schism from the Vatican II church that he belongs to. He is just stating the obvious, and what all the Vatican II bishops believe. The problem is that the SSPX recognizes that Vatican II church as the Catholic Church, as long as they recognize it as the Catholic Church, they are in schism.

    If the SSPX were to come out and say that they have serious doubts whether the Vatican II church is the Catholic Church, or that they can't with certainty of faith say the Vatican II church is Catholic,  then they would not be in schism. As long as they keep legitimizing the Vatican II church, they really are in schism.  They can't have it both ways.
    You are correct here.  The first consecrations were outside of the law, but, at that time, there was a strong case for justifying this breach.  That however did not justify the following acts of establishing Churches schools, seminaries etc. within territorial juristictions and without lawful approval, nor does it cover the new episcopal hierarchy which the SSPX spinoff has created in recent times. This is not 1988 and all of the original Bishops are still alive and active, as well a number of sede Bishops from roughly the same period.The same case cannot be made because the justifying circuмstances are no longer present. 
    However the R&R notion which the SSPX groups live under is another matter, as it is unlawful to dissent from, or reject a council of the Church which you accept as valid and legitimate. To do so in a selective manner is schismatic.  Father Hesse and others have given very good explanations of this.

    As you say they cannot have it both ways, but still they operate as though they can.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #23 on: October 02, 2017, 11:30:18 AM »
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    • For all of you who enjoy "stirring the pot" with the worn-out sspx vs sedevacantist debate, let me remind you of the ultimate purpose of the Catholic Faith:


    Salus animarum suprema lex.   The salvation of souls is the supreme law.


    This is all that matters.  You may agree or disagree with +ABL, +Fellay, etc  (and I disagree with a LOT concerning +Fellay) but the sspx was founded to save souls and they are still doing so, even if their direction has changed and/or become lukewarm towards modernism.


    Still, the fact remains that ANY trad priest is illicit and in schism, if your definitions are applied.  But your application of schism is null (for all trads) because the salvation of souls transcends all man-made church laws.  We should all remember this.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #24 on: October 02, 2017, 11:31:25 AM »
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    • Wow... time to change the Head of the SSPX's PR department, Father Wegner.

    Th SSPX has suffered three modernist rebuffs in three months:

    1. Card Muller.
    2. The German Bishops.
    3. The neo-trad Cardinal Burke.

    I vote to bring back the Englishman.  



    He'll put the Consiliars on the run, the SSPX back into the real seat of tradition.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #25 on: October 02, 2017, 12:03:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 02, 2017, 11:31:25 AM
    Wow... time to change the Head of the SSPX's PR department, Father Wegner.

    Th SSPX has suffered three modernist rebuffs in three months:

    1. Card Muller.
    2. The German Bishops.
    3. The neo-trad Cardinal Burke.

    I vote to bring back the Englishman.  



    He'll put the Consiliars on the run, the SSPX back into the real seat of tradition.

    I'd vote for him too... well that's two votes, good luck in getting many more.

    The neo-SSPX (many of the faithful as well) will "cut off their nose to spite the face." Too many years were invested to remove this "dinosaur." 

    In my opinion, there's no saving the "old" SSPX anymore, it has lost ALL credibility. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #26 on: October 02, 2017, 12:25:03 PM »
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    • There is one small hope to save the SSPX; that is, if Bishop Fellay is not re-elected Superior General next year. It's likely that if he's not re-elected, that the one who would take his place would be of the same mindset. But there is a small hope, though unlikely, that someone with the true vision of Archbishop Lefebvre will be elected instead, and return to the fighting of Modernism and the restoration of tradition, which has now been lost in the SSPX with its current leadership. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #27 on: October 02, 2017, 12:30:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
    There is one small hope to save the SSPX; that is, if Bishop Fellay is not re-elected Superior General next year. It's likely that if he's not re-elected, that the one who would take his place would be of the same mindset. But there is a small hope, though unlikely, that someone with the true vision of Archbishop Lefebvre will be elected instead, and return to the fighting of Modernism and the restoration of tradition, which has now been lost in the SSPX with its current leadership.
    The deck is stacked... might want to consider who the electors are.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #28 on: October 02, 2017, 12:31:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2017, 11:30:18 AM
    For all of you who enjoy "stirring the pot" with the worn-out sspx vs sedevacantist debate, let me remind you of the ultimate purpose of the Catholic Faith:


    Salus animarum suprema lex.   The salvation of souls is the supreme law.


    This is all that matters.  You may agree or disagree with +ABL, +Fellay, etc  (and I disagree with a LOT concerning +Fellay) but the sspx was founded to save souls and they are still doing so, even if their direction has changed and/or become lukewarm towards modernism.


    Still, the fact remains that ANY trad priest is illicit and in schism, if your definitions are applied.  But your application of schism is null (for all trads) because the salvation of souls transcends all man-made church laws.  We should all remember this.

    This is an over generalization.  In pointing out whether certain acts and attitudes are unlawful is not challenging the Church's Divine law or mission.
    The groups in question have not proposed the suspension of canonicity or its general inapplicability, they in fact recognize the authority under which it is currently applied and so they have no standing, by their own position, to continue selectively defying it.

    According to Salus animarum suprema lex.  The salvation of souls is the supreme law the conciliar entity must be considered a schismatic anti-Catholic force within the Church which by all means should be stopped and driven out, not selectively tolerated while it has devastated and lost so many millions of souls and continues to do so every day while preventing the Catholic Church from saving them.

    As was said, "you can't have it both ways."

    Now if one wants to make the case for suspension of canonicity, so that the religious criminals can be routed out and punished and the Church returned to functionality, then that is a subject worthy of consideration and viable under the greater authority of Salus animarum suprema lex.

    If men want to help the Church and Her children they need to start considering the esoteric imperatives over the exoteric laws which stop any meaningful remedy to the Devil's occupying army.  If it is the highest law, then it should be held as such and obeyed before all others, as you have correctly proposed. It is,after all the Divine law, and as such a Divine command.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: “Cardinal” Burke says that the SSPX is in schism
    « Reply #29 on: October 02, 2017, 12:34:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: St Ignatius on October 02, 2017, 12:30:22 PM
    The deck is stacked... might want to consider who the electors are.

    Would you happen to know who the electors are? I don't know how it works, exactly. It's probably the district superiors who are allowed to participate in the election, but maybe it includes more than just them.

    Yes, the deck is probably stacked. It would take a bit of a miracle. And a lot of prayers to change the situation. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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