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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)  (Read 1268 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
« on: July 22, 2017, 04:14:03 PM »
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  • Number DXXIII (523)
    July 22, 2017
    Menzingen’s Mistake – III
    Beautiful principles are not enough –
    Practical application can be tough!

    Another Society of St Pius X priest (Fr. PR, for public relations) has descended into the arena to defend his Superiors’ pursuit of official recognition of the Society by Rome. Fr. PR’s defence is also well presented, but again it suffers from the same essential fault as does the pursuit of the recognition which he is defending – a lack of realism. Principle is one thing, practice is another, even if it is governed by principles. To be a master of principles is not to be a master of practice, and vice versa. It is noteworthy how Fr. PR’s defence of his Superiors’ pursuit of recognition starts out by saying that in this defence he, Fr PR, is only interested in the principles: firstly, whether one can in principle accept recognition from a modernist, and secondly, just how far one can in principle collaborate with a modernist.
    To prove that one can accept recognition from a modernist Pope, he argues that Archbishop Lefebvre sought it from Paul VI until the latter’s death in 1978, and in 1988 he only refused collaboration with John-Paul II in practice, but not in principle. Nor did the Society’s General Chapter of 2012 demand of Benedict XVI a profession of Catholic Faith, to do which betrays at any time a schismatic spirit. But, one replies, the clash between the Archbishop and Paul VI from 1974 onwards is well-known, and behind the Archbishop’s refusal in practice of the Protocol of 1988 were the principles of his Faith. 2012 was just the moment when the Society abandoned the Archbishop by abandoning his stand on the Faith in principle, and as for a schismatic spirit, who was in reality in schism? – the Archbishop or the modernists? As for Pope Francis, Fr PR argues that he is the Pope; that the Church is what not he, but what Our Lord, made it; that collaboration with him is with him only as Catholic Pope. But, one replies, in real life, as the rot of an apple is and is not apple, so the Conciliar Church is and is not the Church. In real life, the Society is not dealing only with the Catholic Church or a Catholic Pope, but directly with Conciliar rot.
    Thus when Fr PR, examining secondly how far one can collaborate with a modernist, answers that one can do so insofar it is for the good of the Church, he constantly abstracts from today’s reality. Thus:—
    * The Church is indefectible – Sure, but Conciliar churchmen are defecting all the time.
    * The Society is serving the Church, not churchmen – Sure, but it has to go through false churchmen.
    * A Catholic prelature could not be refused – Sure, but not if it is managed by false churchmen.
    * The Pope need only stick to its terms – Sure, but what protects a piece of paper from such managers?
    * The Pope’s authority is from God – Sure, but not in order to destroy the Church (II Cor. XIII, 10).
    * T he Society was right to accept jurisdiction for confessions and marriages – Fr. PR, are you so sure? What if that was just the cheese on a mousetrap?
    * Such a practical question as this last question on our situation right now “is not in the power of this article to judge,” replies Fr. PR, but the very possibility that it might not be a trap proves for him that accepting or not Rome’s canonical recognition “should not be judged only on the basis of one’s unity with the Pope’s faith.” And so he concludes that “canonical recognition should be accepted if it is for the good of the Church and rejected if it is not, regardless of the Pope’s faith.”
    But, Father, ask yourself – this Pope’s “faith” being what it is, would or would not a canonical recognition bring the Society under mainstream, i.e., modernist, Superiors? Yes, or no? In real life, do you really think that this Pope would grant a prelature which would not bring the S ociety under Rome’s control? In other words, under the control of people who no longer believe in objective truth? There is much beauty in Catholic principles, but they have to be applied in a real, often all too real, world.
    Kyrie eleison.
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    Offline bernadette

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
    « Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 12:06:07 AM »
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  • Okay, so let's cut to the chase...the sspx is ready to sell out to modernist Rome, and its a grand mistake.  So where does that take everyone?  To the dupes, it leads you to conclude that you are in the remnant, bound for glory, as you defend the church without a pope against the ongoing 50+ year old tidal wave of modernism.  Now what?  


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
    « Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 10:22:59 AM »
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  • It may be that the Archbishop was more adept at juggling the obvious contradictions than the present SSPX leadership is.  Also, ABL was, over all, a holier individual than his successors. He could get away with it.  They can't.

    Offline DirigeNos

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
    « Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 07:28:19 PM »
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  • Okay, so let's cut to the chase...the sspx is ready to sell out to modernist Rome, and its a grand mistake.  So where does that take everyone?  To the dupes, it leads you to conclude that you are in the remnant, bound for glory, as you defend the church without a pope against the ongoing 50+ year old tidal wave of modernism.  Now what?  

    We don't propose to be able to restore the church or defeat modernism with our small group. Only God can do that. We are just holding onto the Faith that we know is true. No grey areas. No mixing of truth and error. No mixing with modernism. We know that it must get worse before the end times. The church will appear to have disappeared from the face of the earth and yet it will remain, hidden if necessary. The gates of hell will not prevail. It is an unusual situation when a Pope is preaching heresies and not being deposed. You can look on the news and see the scandalous crimes occurring in the Vatican. Why does the leader of the SSPX desire so much to be assimilated into this satanic den? To keep playing "a game of goose"?  

    In brief, the problem of the SSPX is this. Thesis-antithesis-synthesis/dialectic. (some of you may know who preaches this). At it's inception, the SSPX "thesis" was clear: the priesthood, the sacraments, the Faith, saving souls. It was producing good fruits. The "antithesis" was clearly on the other side: the Novus Ordo Mass, modernist Rome, the modernist Popes, confusion, ecuмenism, etc. Not long after, since the late 90s perhaps, the SSPX, through it's leadership bothered by incongruence with Rome, began to seek the "synthesis". This is the middle ground. Compromise. Luke warmness. Politics and political correctness. Attractive branding. Comfort. The fruits became rotten. At the same time as synthesis - the dialectic which is "the art of investigating or discussing the truth of opinions". An individual can fall into the same trap as an organization. A person who enjoys so much the truth in opinions will begin to make up their own truth. 

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
    « Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 07:42:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    * The Society was right to accept jurisdiction for confessions and marriages – Fr. PR, are you so sure? What if that was just the cheese on a mousetrap?

    * Such a practical question as this last question on our situation right now “is not in the power of this article to judge,” replies Fr. PR, but the very possibility that it might not be a trap proves for him that accepting or not Rome’s canonical recognition “should not be judged only on the basis of one’s unity with the Pope’s faith.” And so he concludes that “canonical recognition should be accepted if it is for the good of the Church and rejected if it is not, regardless of the Pope’s faith.”

    But, Father, ask yourself – this Pope’s “faith” being what it is, would or would not a canonical recognition bring the Society under mainstream, i.e., modernist, Superiors? Yes, or no?
    .
    That's an awful lot to pack into so few sentences. I pity any newcomer to this crisis - they wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of this tug o' war. 
    .
    The chance that Rome's offer of jurisdiction for confessions and marriages was not just "the cheese on a mousetrap" is so close to zero it's not funny. And as far as that goes, the character of the Pope's faith is not a necessary component for the calculation, for it can just as well obfuscate as make any positive contribution.
    .
    The last question, "Yes or no?" is not going to evoke a straight answer. No way. It's going to be, "Yes and no," or "That all depends what you mean by the word 'faith', or the word 'is'."
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline bernadette

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Menzingen’s Mistake III (no. 523)
    « Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 11:19:24 PM »
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  • We don't propose to be able to restore the church or defeat modernism with our small group. Only God can do that. We are just holding onto the Faith that we know is true. No grey areas. No mixing of truth and error. No mixing with modernism. We know that it must get worse before the end times. The church will appear to have disappeared from the face of the earth and yet it will remain, hidden if necessary. The gates of hell will not prevail. It is an unusual situation when a Pope is preaching heresies and not being deposed. You can look on the news and see the scandalous crimes occurring in the Vatican. Why does the leader of the SSPX desire so much to be assimilated into this satanic den? To keep playing "a game of goose"?  

    In brief, the problem of the SSPX is this. Thesis-antithesis-synthesis/dialectic. (some of you may know who preaches this). At it's inception, the SSPX "thesis" was clear: the priesthood, the sacraments, the Faith, saving souls. It was producing good fruits. The "antithesis" was clearly on the other side: the Novus Ordo Mass, modernist Rome, the modernist Popes, confusion, ecuмenism, etc. Not long after, since the late 90s perhaps, the SSPX, through it's leadership bothered by incongruence with Rome, began to seek the "synthesis". This is the middle ground. Compromise. Luke warmness. Politics and political correctness. Attractive branding. Comfort. The fruits became rotten. At the same time as synthesis - the dialectic which is "the art of investigating or discussing the truth of opinions". An individual can fall into the same trap as an organization. A person who enjoys so much the truth in opinions will begin to make up their own truth.
    Are you saying only your small group are capable of holding on to the faith you know to be true?  If you truly believe the gates of hell will not prevail, then what is the reason to withdraw from the universal church?


    The swellheads in the trad movement, particularly the SSPX, are doing their children no favors by keeping them "protected" from the world they live in...the SSPX priests overstep their bounds and encourage cult like behavior in their followers.  If you have young children...beware.