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Author Topic: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2019, 10:23:26 AM »
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  • Hi Mr G, thanks for the response. While I don't agree with the "last three years only" idea, here are somethings +ABL said in later years.



    They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue." https://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations Now, thanks to Archbishop Lefebvre, and to all that Bishop Fellay and the SSPX has obtained in 2007-11 and its aftermath, the Traditionalist Citadel can continue, and should.

    There is no reason therefore, in our opinion to refuse normal relations with Rome under those circuмstances. Your thoughts, Mr.G? God bless.
    https://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations
    In the same docuмent you quote above, there is also this (see below), thus you need to consider the whole docuмent and draw the overall conclusion. 
    A false charity
    And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

    Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

    Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecuмenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?

    This is what causes us a problem with certain layfolk, who are very nice, very good people, all for the Society, who accepted the Consecrations, but who have a kind of deep-down regret that they are no longer with the people they used to be with, people who did not accept the Consecrations and who are now against us. "It's a pity we are divided", they say, "why not meet up with them? Let's go and have a drink together, reach out a hand to them"—that's a betrayal! Those saying this give the impression that at the drop of a hat they would cross over and join those who left us. They must make up their minds.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #16 on: October 25, 2019, 10:38:01 AM »
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  • XavierSem is like 20 years old, what would he know about Abp. L or Bp. Castro de Mayer? XavierSem also wants to go to the SSPX seminary, so don't expect him to write one single word that would jeopardize his dream. Truth is of secondary importance to people who seek self advancement. His problem is that he is too interested in researching, and the SSPX frowns upon that, even if the "facts" are what they want to hear. The SSPX is looking for seminarians that love the mass and do not know much if anything having to do with the Vatican II church.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #17 on: October 25, 2019, 11:39:52 AM »
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  • Quote
    LT: XavierSem is like 20 years old, what would he know about Abp. L or Bp. Castro de Mayer?

    I don't know really anything about XSem, including his age.  If he knows little or nothing about ABl or de Castro Mayer, that is something he will either have to confirm or deny.  It would behoove him, however, to know something about the close relationship between the two bishops.  What I wrote above is absolutely true, as reported by +W himself.  Bp.de Castro Mayer did far more than just consider the possibility of the SV position.  He was poised to embrace it totally, and he may have done so before the end of his life. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #18 on: October 25, 2019, 12:35:57 PM »
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  • I don't know really anything about XSem, including his age.  If he knows little or nothing about ABl or de Castro Mayer, that is something he will either have to confirm or deny.  It would behoove him, however, to know something about the close relationship between the two bishops.  What I wrote above is absolutely true, as reported by +W himself.  Bp.de Castro Mayer did far more than just consider the possibility of the SV position.  He was poised to embrace it totally, and he may have done so before the end of his life.

    People close to Bishop de Castro Mayer say that he was in fact a sedevacantist before the end.  Father Bisig (of FSSP fame) recently stated that +Lefebvre was privately sedevacantist but did not come out publicly because he didn't want the SSPX to tear apart.  That is actually implied in the one public quote from +Lefebvre where he said that ...
    Quote
    “It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    +Lefebvre had said repeatedly that it's OK to hold as a private opinion (among SSPX priests) but not to publicly declare it.  Combine that with the quote above, and that's probably exactly what he was talking about, having thought / believed / suspected it for twenty years but preferring to wait before publicly declaring it.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #19 on: October 25, 2019, 01:35:00 PM »
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  • Lad's last post is probably spot on.  I'm a bit disturbed though by the suggestion that ABL may have harbored SV sentiments in his heart, yet for the sake of keeping his apostolate together, refrained from expressing his real convictions about SVism.  That's just plain troubling to me.  He had a duty, IMO, to reveal that position, if, indeed, he held it.
    As it is now the sedes are treated as second class citizens in the greater traditional Catholic community.  They are the the unloved step children of most trads.  They have no place in the dining room with them, but must eat in the kitchen with the hired help.  They are told to run along and play, while really serious trads discuss the real issues at hand.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #20 on: October 25, 2019, 01:41:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    As it is now the sedes are treated as second class citizens in the greater traditional Catholic community.

    Some of them bring that treatment upon themselves, because they act like the belligerent, drunk uncle at family gatherings (i.e. Fr Cekada) who likes to stir the pot and tell people what to do.  Both sides (sspx and sede) are to blame for not getting along.  Many, many clerics on both sides have drawn lines in the sand.  

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #21 on: October 26, 2019, 10:10:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    In the same docuмent you quote above, there is also this (see below), thus you need to consider the whole docuмent and draw the overall conclusion.


    Agreed. In that speech, +ABL is attacking the folly of trying to preserve Catholic Tradition without Catholic Bishops chosen from within Tradition - it is almost a logical impossibility. In the General Chapter of 2012, if you note, there are 6 conditions. Here's a conference of His Excellency Bishop Alfonso de Galaretta on the first 3: https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/10/from-dici-sspx-rome-present-day.html

    The first:  “The freedom to keep, transmit and teach the sacred doctrine of the constant Magisterium of the Church and of the unchangeable Truth of divine Tradition”.

    Next, the second point:  “To use the 1962 liturgy exclusively”, and therefore the whole liturgy of 1962, not just the Mass:  everything, even the Pontifical.  To preserve the sacramental practice that we have presently, including what concerns Holy Orders, Confirmation and Matrimony.

    Then, still within the sine qua non conditions:  the guarantee of at least one bishop."

    All of these were arrived at after very careful study of +ABL's whole life, letters, actions and teaching. Bishop Fellay said something like, "When we study +ABL's words at the time, we conclude he would have accepted what is now being proposed". If +ABL would not have accepted even when Bishops were granted, right to teach Truth and condemn errors, and offer the True Mass and Traditional Sacraments exclusively were acknowledged, why did +ABL say all those other things all those years, and even imply that, with Bishops guaranteed and other sufficient conditions, even the 1988 protocol would be acceptable? If even in 1990, +ABL can say, "For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See."Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue" it is obvious to us +ABL would have agreed with us.

    Anyway, for this thread, here's one of three other letters. All 3 can be read here: http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_41.htm

    "Letter of Mgr. Lefebvre to the Sovereign Pontiff1
    Most Holy Father,
    To put an end to some rumours which are now spreading both in Rome and certain traditionalist circles in Europe, and even in America, concerning my attitude and my way of thinking with respect to the Pope, the Council, and the Novus Ordo Mass, and fearing lest these rumours should reach Your Holiness, I may make so bold as to reaffirm my consistent position.
    1. I have no reservation whatsoever concerning the legitimacy and validity of your election, and consequently I cannot tolerate there not being addressed to God the prayers prescribed by Holy Church for Your Holiness. I have already had to act with severity, and continue to do so, with regard to some seminarians and priests who have allowed themselves to be influenced by certain clerics who do not belong to the Society.
    2. I am fully in agreement with the judgment that Your Holiness gave on the Second Vatican Council, on 6 November 1978, at a meeting of the Sacred College: "that the Council must be understood in the light of the whole of holy Tradition, and on the basis of the unvarying Magisterium of Holy Mother Church."
    3. As for the Novus Ordo Mass, despite the reservations which must be shown in its respect, I have never affirmed that it is in itself invalid or heretical.
    I would be grateful to God and to Your Holiness if these clear declarations could hasten the free use of the traditional liturgy, and the recognition of the Society of St. Pius X by the Church, and likewise of all those who, subscribing to these declarations, have striven to save the Church by perpetuating its Tradition.
    I beg Your Holiness to accept my profound and filial respect in Christo et Maria.

    †Marcel Lefebvre"
    The SSPX doesn't accept the idea that all these letters and everything +ABL wrote before some particular date is suddenly invalid.
    God bless.

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #22 on: October 26, 2019, 02:18:58 PM »
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  • Agreed. In that speech, +ABL is attacking the folly of trying to preserve Catholic Tradition without Catholic Bishops chosen from within Tradition - it is almost a logical impossibility. In the General Chapter of 2012, if you note, there are 6 conditions. Here's a conference of His Excellency Bishop Alfonso de Galaretta on the first 3: https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/10/from-dici-sspx-rome-present-day.html

    The first:  “The freedom to keep, transmit and teach the sacred doctrine of the constant Magisterium of the Church and of the unchangeable Truth of divine Tradition”.

    Next, the second point:  “To use the 1962 liturgy exclusively”, and therefore the whole liturgy of 1962, not just the Mass:  everything, even the Pontifical.  To preserve the sacramental practice that we have presently, including what concerns Holy Orders, Confirmation and Matrimony.

    Then, still within the sine qua non conditions:  the guarantee of at least one bishop."

    All of these were arrived at after very careful study of +ABL's whole life, letters, actions and teaching. Bishop Fellay said something like, "When we study +ABL's words at the time, we conclude he would have accepted what is now being proposed". If +ABL would not have accepted even when Bishops were granted, right to teach Truth and condemn errors, and offer the True Mass and Traditional Sacraments exclusively were acknowledged, why did +ABL say all those other things all those years, and even imply that, with Bishops guaranteed and other sufficient conditions, even the 1988 protocol would be acceptable? If even in 1990, +ABL can say, "For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See."Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue" it is obvious to us +ABL would have agreed with us.

    Anyway, for this thread, here's one of three other letters. All 3 can be read here: http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_41.htm

    "Letter of Mgr. Lefebvre to the Sovereign Pontiff1
    Most Holy Father,
    To put an end to some rumours which are now spreading both in Rome and certain traditionalist circles in Europe, and even in America, concerning my attitude and my way of thinking with respect to the Pope, the Council, and the Novus Ordo Mass, and fearing lest these rumours should reach Your Holiness, I may make so bold as to reaffirm my consistent position.
    1. I have no reservation whatsoever concerning the legitimacy and validity of your election, and consequently I cannot tolerate there not being addressed to God the prayers prescribed by Holy Church for Your Holiness. I have already had to act with severity, and continue to do so, with regard to some seminarians and priests who have allowed themselves to be influenced by certain clerics who do not belong to the Society.
    2. I am fully in agreement with the judgment that Your Holiness gave on the Second Vatican Council, on 6 November 1978, at a meeting of the Sacred College: "that the Council must be understood in the light of the whole of holy Tradition, and on the basis of the unvarying Magisterium of Holy Mother Church."
    3. As for the Novus Ordo Mass, despite the reservations which must be shown in its respect, I have never affirmed that it is in itself invalid or heretical.
    I would be grateful to God and to Your Holiness if these clear declarations could hasten the free use of the traditional liturgy, and the recognition of the Society of St. Pius X by the Church, and likewise of all those who, subscribing to these declarations, have striven to save the Church by perpetuating its Tradition.
    I beg Your Holiness to accept my profound and filial respect in Christo et Maria.

    †Marcel Lefebvre"
    The SSPX doesn't accept the idea that all these letters and everything +ABL wrote before some particular date is suddenly invalid.
    God bless.
    This letter was written in 1979 before Assisi, Consecrations, etc. Letters from the last 2 years of his life should be your reference.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #23 on: October 27, 2019, 07:30:25 PM »
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  • Certain blind contributors to this forum really need to get on a plane bound for Switzerland for a little R and R in the Swiss Alps with Bishop Huonder, just to breathe the pure air of Traditional Catholicism and get updated on the "agenda". Or perhaps they already have? Faced with the wicked deeds of the current leadership of the SSPX, any attempt to use the writings of Archbishop Lefebvre to try to justify their new orientation is really quite grotesque.

    Offline Francisco

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre's Letters justify Bishop Fellay.
    « Reply #24 on: October 27, 2019, 10:00:03 PM »
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  • As an obviously serious student of Archbishop Lefebvre you may wish to look up the entry on the late Archbishop on catholic-hierarchy.org which has this remark:
    HE LEFT THE CHURCH