Yes.

We can all believe whatever we want.

Good Catholic theology.

Yes.

We can all believe whatever we want.

Good Catholic theology.

A useless reponse, unless you explain yourself.

Well said, Bowler.  There is definitely room for polite debate on the issue.  But, like a few other unsettled theological issues open to multiple viewpoints, in actuality the "polite" in polite debate never actually happens because of, as you wisely pointed out, vitriol on both sides.

Seraphim, you know I respect you, but I believe we could all do without the sarcastic tone.  I would imagine this isn't really how Our Lord wants spiritual brothers to act.  I wish you had said something more like:

"Grant, I have to disagree with you on this.  It seems to me that saying there are multiple acceptable viewpoints on the issue of sedevacante/non-sedevacante is equal to saying that Catholics can believe whatever they want, which is kind of the essence of Modernism."

to which I would say:

"My dear Seraphim.  God Bless you!  Actually, my post had nothing to do with my own opinion about the issue.  I was simply stating docuмented facts about what Archbishop Lefebvre held and what Bishop Williamson holds about the sedevacante position.  If you think that their position is guilty of subjectivism, then so be it.  But I would personally never accuse Archbishop Lefebvre or Bishop Williamson of that.  It is certainly true that pluralism on issues of established Catholic teaching, whether through a simple statement from the Vatican approved by the Pope (such as Pope Pius XI's Modesty Standards), an established continuity of belief or practice held throughout the Church or, of course, formal declarations by the Pope himself, is not permitted.  But, that doesn't apply here to Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson not condemning the sedevacante position despite NOT personally holding it.  Because, though there surely are VERY FEW conceivable theological issues that have not been clarified and so, therefore, are open to differing views by Catholics, this issue happens to be one of the few.  Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson simply was/is consistent with the accurately Catholic position, namely, to not hold as infallible a theological position the Church has not clearly taught on.  It is a fact that there has never been any clear guidance from Holy Mother Church as to how laypeople are supposed to deal with a situation when the visible/recognized popes state heresy and have a general council that espouses heresy, and different Saints have taught different theoretical consequences of such a theoretical situation, so, according to Catholic theology on the definition of Church doctrine, it would seem that no Catholic of any viewpoint on this particular  issue has the authority to maintain any position on the issue as absolute and condemn as heretical/schismatic anyone of the opposing viewpoint."

and then you can politely respond and I can politely respond and we can either eventually politely agree to disagree or come to a polite accord.  Now, isn't that much more in keeping with Catholic fraternity than the sarcasm and bitterness that has directed the debates on the topic thus far?        

Quote from: Amicus24

...but then, I don't understand why anyone feels the need to debate the issue in the first place.  Not that people shouldn't have a firm position one way or the other, but I don't see any reason why it has to be some Great Wall of Tradition that prevents harmony and occasional cooperation.  No one is accepting any Modernism.  I pray that at some point, everyone can see it as an issue they can politely agree to disagree on.

I don't see any problem with debate, that is how truth is reached. The problem is feuding, condeming, stigmatizing. I've had sedevacantes tell me that they couuld not associate with me because I prayed for the pope. On the other hand, the SSPX has spent years stigmatizing the sedevacantes.
I don't do either.

 
Bowler,

Very good post and I agree with you.  There are extremists on both sides, but in my opinion the greater amount of Catholics fall in the middle and are honestly interested in the truth.

Amicus 24,

In this recent discussion of sedevacacantism on here, only one person was accusing Catholics of being outside the Church and equating Catholics with heretics and schismatics.  Everyone else remained calm and discussed.

We cannot let one outlier determine the course of a very useful question.  The "pope" question is important to all of us, and it is one that cannot be ignored.  There are practical consequence to error on this question.  

Let us all reflect on the words of Archbishop Lefebvre on the Pope question:

Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the Pope is a heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church, it is the Pope. He is the centre of the Church and has a great influence on all Catholics by his attitudes, his words and his acts. All men read in the newspapers the Pope's words and on television they see his travels. And so, slowly, slowly, many Catholics are losing the Catholic Faith by the scandal of the Pope's partaking in false religions. This ecuмenism is a scandal in the true sense of the word, an encouragement to sin. Catholics are losing faith in the Catholic Church. They think all religions are good because the Pope in this way befriends men of all religions. When the scandal comes from so high in the Church, from the man in the chair of Peter and from almost all the bishops, then poor Catholics who are thrown back on their own resources and who do not know their Faith well enough to keep it despite all, or who do not have priests by their side to help them to keep the Faith, these Catholics are completely at a loss what to do. They are no longer practicing their Faith, or they give up praying, or they are losing the Faith altogether and are joining some sect or other. I ask, what people are keeping the Faith? Where are they? Where are they? And I ask even the Traditionalists!

(1986, Address to Seminarians)

Hi Ambrose,

Yes, in the current discussion that is definitely the case.  Please don't think I was referring to you in any way.  I more wanted to speak generally because I didn't want to single anyone here out and because on this board in the past and on other boards and in different gatherings of people I've been in, on both sides, there has been a lot of vitriol and different claims laid on the positions of Archbishop Lefebvre.  But, again, yes, definitely agree with you on the tenor of the current discussion and your comments in particular have been very moderate and cordial.  

And, yes, I agree with you and Bowler; there is room for friendly discussion on the issue.  It just seems that such never actually ends up happening.  There is always someone that takes the discussion off the tracks and then things usually devolve from there.

Grant

Like yourself, I hate the discord among Catholics.  I believe the best we can do is imitate Our Lord and Our Lady and behave accordingly with patience and charity.  

There are serious consequences to not understanding the "Pope issue" correctly.  Bp. Fellay and those who follow him are following the logic that one must remain submissive to the Roman Pontiff, which is why they are negotiating with Benedict XVI.

Once Catholics see Benedict for who he is, a public heretic and destroyer of the Church, and one is not the Pope, the problem ends.  There will be no more reason to try to place oneself under him.  

Sedevacantism is not necessary for salvation, but it makes a Catholic safer in the crisis.  The truth always is always good, even if the truth is hard.  For this reason, I believe it is important to discuss this topic, in charity to our Catholic brothers and sisters, to keep them safe from the Wolf.

The somewhat amusing idea that "understanding" sedevacantism as the truth somehow is a panacea and precludes all possibility of making mistakes where relations with Rome are concerned is unfortunately not true, as the simple fact of the life of Archbishop Thuc vis-a-vis that of Archbishop Lefebvre illustrates. Fr.Boulet's recount,  

In 1976, he consecrated Bishop Clemente Dominguez y Gomez, the founder of the sect of Palmar de Troya, Spain. Bishop Thuc was then excommunicated by the Vatican for such consecration, but was 'reconciled' by Paul VI in the course of the same year.

In 1977, the following year, he consecrated Bishop Laborie, the founder of the sect called Eglise Latine de Toulouse. Then, in 1981-1982, he consecrated Bishop Guérard des Lauriers and 3 other bishops in different ceremonies held in secret in his private apartment, in Toulon, France.  In 1982, he made a statement, called the Munich Declaration, by which he declared Vacancy of the See of Peter, in other words that John-Paul II lost his office.

Last but not least, Bishop Thuc was finally 'reconciled' by the Vatican shortly before his death, in 1984. So, from 1976 till his death, Bishop Thuc had been oscillating between Sedevacantism and reconciliation with the Vatican.

...certes pas pour embrasser ses erreurs, mais pour le convertir.



                    Why the necessity of even entering into a
                  conversation with BXVI  and negotiating with
                  a non-catholic which AB Lebevre stated "the
                  Pope is not catholic."
                     We know that +Fellay will not embrace
                  ses erreurs but why even expect the pope
                  to convert . . . he has been a Modernist
                  his entire life and has denied basic articles
                  of The Faith.  The Resistance is formed bc
                  of + Fellay's playing with heretics.Play with
                  Fire and you will get burned.  Then too my
                  French is not too good and maybe I didnt
                  grasp your point for wh/ I apologize.
 
                   Quantum Potes, Tantum Aude!